McCain Wants To Restart the Cold War

[Judge]

Your articles were written by idiots. Putin was a senior KGB officer and committed communist, who a decade ago declared his intention of rebuilding Russia in the mold of the USSR... this had nothing, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, to do with US policy, especially that of President Bush....

Your article makes it seem like putin just started to pursue this course a year ago, which is a complete lie.

Only fools believe, or those who don't study history.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Don't you think the U.S. push to get the Ukraine and Georgia into NATO is just thumbing our nose in Putin's face?

I posted two articles that said that Putin is in large part reacting to Bush's bellicosity. One was in the American Conservative magazine.

And, where are millions dying?

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by Judge

Your articles were written by idiots. Putin was a senior KGB officer and committed communist, who a decade ago declared his intention of rebuilding Russia in the mold of the USSR... this had nothing, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, to do with US policy, especially that of President Bush....

Your article makes it seem like putin just started to pursue this course a year ago, which is a complete lie.

Only fools believe, or those who don't study history.

Anatol Lieven is a realist and very well-regarded.

Please offer proof that Putin "a decade ago declared his intention of rebuilding Russia in the mold of the USSR."

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

I agree with Frenchy 100%.

I will definitely lay some blame on Bush. To what degree, I am not sure, but will say that Frenchy is dead on that Putin is "old guard".

Yes, he says he is responding to U.S. and NATO actions, but I also sensed that he was looking for a reason, anyway. He definitely seems sentimental when conversation of the Soviet Union comes up.

This is all based on rumor and some sort of inner feelings on the part of you and Frenchy. You offer no proof that your "feelings" are valid.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by afmo

Don't you think the U.S. push to get the Ukraine and Georgia into NATO is just thumbing our nose in Putin's face?

I posted two articles that said that Putin is in large part reacting to Bush's bellicosity. One was in the American Conservative magazine.

i think that in part that is a correct assesment, but i think that its more a product of Putin/Russia's continued campaign to strong-arm and dominate former soviet republics, and continued cold war tactics... To say that Putin is only reacting to GWB's policies is to assume that all the actions of nations happen in a vacuum and that the only link is a direct one. There may be a small causal relationship between the policies of GWB and the actions of Putin/Russia, but i think to say that GWB's policies are the biggest factor in russia's actions is foolish, and just another thing to blame GWB for.

Russia and Georgia have been playing the puff-out-the-chest-game for a while now, and i think its probably a good thing that someone is keeping Putin's cold war tactics in check. McCain may be calling for the ouster of Russia from the G8, but its hardly without cause. They are flying planes in cold war style formations, searching for more powerful nukes, and unrest in their former republics. Not to mention Russia/Putin's on-again-off-again agreement with Iran to sell missiles to them, their selling of Arms to venezuela, and their $3 billion arms contract to Libya. Now tell me...who's ramping up the cold war rhetoric here?

I think violence (invading Iraq) and aggressiveness (pushing for NATO membership for former Soviet states) beget violence and aggressiveness.

Geez! Not long ago, under Reagan, Bush I and Clinton, we were in love with Russia.

[Judge]

I remember reading some briefing papers... here's a quick link from the history channel about a 2003 show called "Return of USSR" - describing putin's desire to rebuild the USSR.

It was made in 2001 and 2002. That's at least 6 to 7 years ago.

Putin didn't just come across this idea...


History Channel: Return of USSR? ...

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Anatol Lieven is a realist and very well-regarded.

Please offer proof that Putin "a decade ago declared his intention of rebuilding Russia in the mold of the USSR."

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by Judge

I remember reading some briefing papers... here's a quick link from the history channel about a 2003 show called "Return of USSR" - describing putin's desire to rebuild the USSR.

It was made in 2001 and 2002. That's at least 6 to 7 years ago.

Putin didn't just come across this idea...


History Channel: Return of USSR? ...

Talk about dodgy sources. This is a blog on the History Channel website that starts out with this entry:

I recently read an article in TIME magazine that I thought hinted at the return of the Soviet Union. It goes on to say that President Putin is very harsh and has a real Soviet idealogy. I didn't believe it but maybe I'm just interpreting it wrong? I would appreciate replies on what you think of the subject and whether we should take it seriously. God knows that we don't need that again. Thanks for your help. -Renegade04

[afmo]

I think violence (invading Iraq) and aggressiveness (pushing for NATO membership for former Soviet states) beget violence and aggressiveness.

again...i agree...to a SMALL extent. You can't look at things in a vacuum, you have to look at the big picture. Ask yourself why Russia is so against former comm-bloc republics admission to NATO? Why would Putin take it as a snub if he didn't want to re-establish the Soviet Union? Look beyond the "omg bush has done everything wrong!" rhetoric and look at the big picture.

Russia has nearly ZERO standing in the worlds big picture, they've only been a member of the G8 since 1997, and even then only at the behest of Bill Clinton. The group sometimes gets called "The G7 and Russia." They are a shell of a nation. They've got hardly any economy aside from selling oil/gas, and haven't had a heyday since before the fall of communism. Now add to that mix an ex-KGB agent with a chip on his shoulder, and you get a situation like we have. A broken country and someone who will do anything to regain its stature on the world stage.

Here is an article from the last G8 Summit.

Russian President Vladimir Putin will arrive at the G8 Summit in Heiligendamm on 6 June amid a storm of controversy over his Cold War-style warning that Russia will revert to targeting its missiles on Europe if the US goes ahead with building a missile shield near its borders.

The idea of a missile defense system has been around since the 60's. hardly anything new and met with a cold-war tactic.

Since Putin took office, Russia's defense spending has Quadrupled, and they've begun military might parades in the Red Square again.

Now Putin is out of office, and his hand-picked guaranteed winner Dimitri Medvediv has kept Putin on as PM. Putinism is the root cause of the Cold War Rhetoric, not the actions of the U.S.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by afmo

again...i agree...to a SMALL extent. You can't look at things in a vacuum, you have to look at the big picture. Ask yourself why Russia is so against former comm-bloc republics admission to NATO? Why would Putin take it as a snub if he didn't want to re-establish the Soviet Union? Look beyond the "omg bush has done everything wrong!" rhetoric and look at the big picture.

Russia has nearly ZERO standing in the worlds big picture, they've only been a member of the G8 since 1997, and even then only at the behest of Bill Clinton. The group sometimes gets called "The G7 and Russia." They are a shell of a nation. They've got hardly any economy aside from selling oil/gas, and haven't had a heyday since before the fall of communism. Now add to that mix an ex-KGB agent with a chip on his shoulder, and you get a situation like we have. A broken country and someone who will do anything to regain its stature on the world stage.

Here is an article from the last G8 Summit.

The idea of a missile defense system has been around since the 60's. hardly anything new and met with a cold-war tactic.

Since Putin took office, Russia's defense spending has Quadrupled, and they've begun military might parades in the Red Square again.

Now Putin is out of office, and his hand-picked guaranteed winner Dimitri Medvediv has kept Putin on as PM. Putinism is the root cause of the Cold War Rhetoric, not the actions of the U.S.

Well, you sound like you're pretty knowledgeable about Russian politics.

The reason they're against these former Soviet countries joining NATO is because they're so close for one reason. They see this formidable military bloc right on their borders. Plus, I don't know if you read the Lieven piece, but the Ukraine is VERY tight with Russia.

For it is not just a question of Ukrainian NATO membership infuriating Russia, real though that threat is—and understandable. After all, the Russians have lost far more men fighting in Ukraine in various wars than have died in all of America’s wars put together, and the Russian flag was flying over the naval port of Sevastopol before the United States was even created. Even more important are two more facts almost never mentioned in the American debate on this subject—if one can call it a debate. The first is that according to every reliable opinion poll, the great majority of Ukrainians do not even want NATO membership. They are convinced that far from bringing Ukraine greater security, inclusion in the alliance would lead to fierce internal divisions and potentially even split up their country, as well as vastly increase the threat from Russia.

Leaving aside the deep historical and cultural ties between much of Ukraine and Russia, Ukrainians are well aware of how economically dependent their country is on Russia and how little by comparison the West has done to help them. Until it was reduced at the start of 2006, Russia’s annual gas subsidy to Ukraine was worth more than four times as much (between $3 and $5 billion dollars) as the whole of U.S. aid to Ukraine in the five years since 2000 (less than $800 million). Millions of Ukrainians work legally in Russia and send their families remittances, which contribute immensely to the Ukrainian economy. By contrast, only a handful of Ukrainians receive work visas for the U.S. and the European Union.

The second fact is that if Ukraine does become a member of NATO, the U.S. cannot defend it. Given American commitments in the Middle East, where is Washington to find another army with which to defend Ukraine? Would any American administration be prepared to re-introduce the draft in order to defend Ukraine? If it did, would any Congress agree? And even if one can imagine this happening in some parallel geopolitical universe, is there any chance that American troops would be used to shoot demonstrators in eastern and southern Ukraine calling for their regions to break away from Ukraine in order to remain allied with Russia?

As far as Russia being a broken country, many Russians blame the West for that because they see the economic "reforms" as having been initiated in the West.

And, you sound like Frenchy and LMS. Where do you get the idea that Putin has a chip on his shoulder?

[afmo]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Well, you sound like you're pretty knowledgeable about Russian politics.

The reason they're against these former Soviet countries joining NATO is because they're so close for one reason. They see this formidable military bloc right on their borders. Plus, I don't know if you read the Lieven piece, but the Ukraine is VERY tight with Russia.

This really has nothing to do with the policies of the U.S. though. The way Russia deals with independent nations joining NATO is through cold war tactics? rational response.

As far as Russia being a broken country, many Russians blame the West for that because they see the economic "reforms" as having been initiated in the West.

Of course they'll place blame on those who have more than they do! The people blaming the west for russia's troubles probably complained about communism too. God forbid they look to their own leaders for their problems. Perception and reality are often two very different things.

And, you sound like Frenchy and LMS. Where do you get the idea that Putin has a chip on his shoulder?

Just a hunch i have. the guy's thesis was "Russia: The Principal of the Most Favored Nation" in 1975. He was a 15 year KGB agent, rose to Lieutenant Colonel, then could do nothing while his country collapsed around him. He's a product of the Soviet System and devoted his early career to that ideology. Now we see with him in a position of power and posturing for a cold war redo. Just feels to me like he's got a chip on his shoulder.

[tortoise1956]

or else he wouldn't have taken steps such as resuming strategic bomber flights, ramping up military production, retargeting strategic missiles on Europe, moving troops into South Ossetia without Georgian permission in direct violation of a treay. Not to mention military exercises in conjunction with China, who makes no bones about wanting to be the big dog on the block.

A quick check of the internet will reveal that pretty much all the major Russian media outlets are govenment controlled. Private ownership of industry is disappearing fast, with the exception of those who are in Putin's favor. He handpicked his successor as President, and he seems to have complete control of the Duma. Check this link if you want to see how powerful he really is:

Media curbs likely after Putin divorce report - CNN.com

Hainv served in the Navy during the cold war, I have no desire to go back to those days. If we do not rein in Putin and squash his dreams of empire, I am terrified that the end result will make the '70s look like the '50s.