I'm not here to defend SF....but I did live there for a short period of time, and this makes no sense to me. What does 'validation" mean?
It means that if someone chooses a lifestyle I consider immoral, rather than simply tolerating them I am considered a bigot if I speak out and say it is immoral. Now, personally I don't consider homosexuality immoral, but I don't consider those who do, and preach against it, bigots. This is of course barring the "god hates ****" folks who I think do it more for the media attention than a sense of moral superiority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
Example? Again, I have no idea what you even mean.
A perfect example. San Fransisco's draconic attempt to ban all handguns within city limits. Keep folks from the means to protect themselves because a few bad apples commit crimes. Sacrifice personal liberty for "The Greater Good"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
Again...no idea what this means. If SF was attacked, the citizens would lay down their arms? Ridiculous. SF is part of the US. The people who live there are Americans. Americans have always fought to be free. No matter where they were from. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, the lines in SF at the enlistment centers were as long or longer than anywhere else in the US. SF was also the staging point for almost everyone who was sent to fight in Vietnam and SE Asia. SF had it's anti-war demonstrations in the later stages of that conflict, but so did virtually everywhere else in America. Small towns, large cities....everywhere.
San Fransisco has always been the forefront of the peace and nonviolent resistance movement in the U.S. These are good ideals in certain times but there are times to fight. I really wouldn't be surprised if they did "lay down" whatever arms they have for "nonviolent resistance"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
LOL....have a single example? Or just an explanation? Lot's of assertions, but no facts. Not much sense either. I'm struggling just to even understand your post, let alone figure out if your points are valid.
Sorry you're having trouble understanding my post...I'll try and simplify it next time.
Here are examples
SF bans marksmanship and military history in it's JROTC classes.
Interesting...considering that San Francisco has perhaps the largest military presence on the West Coast.
Rejection of 'traditional values'? What are "traditional values'? How to you qualify or quantify something that is completely subjective?
If you don't understand the basic traditional values of personal liberty and choice this country was founded on, I can't really help you understand them...sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
"Rejection of a willingness to fight to preserve .....(edit)...-Really? People from SF are less patriotic than people from elsewhere? This assertion is based on what? Less people from SF serving in the military? No, I know that can't be it. Less willing to serve in government? Nope, that's not the case either. What is?
Less willing to "defend oneself'? No idea what that means.
Less willing to 'defend capitalism"? Not only ridiculous on the surface, but SF is the financial capital of the Western region of the US.
Assertions based on discussions with individuals I've had from that region. Visits to San Francisco and the like. I'm sure there are patriotic, ready to fight for freedom individuals in San Francisco, they're just not very loud or outspoken about it. The prevailing attitude in the city is one of Non-violent resistance and anti-American sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
My favorite...I've seen all kind of religious evangelicalism. I've never seen anyone attempt to "spread the ideals" you make allusions to (but don't define) with the kind of zealotry we see in tent revivals....(or other such events with the sole purpose of "spreading ideals").
Then clearly you've never lived in Reno, and seen the influx of residents who move here from the bay area and try and tote all of their overbearing big-government legislative crap with them. Attend a few town-hall meetings here and you can pick them out of the crowd easily. They're always the ones BEGGING for more government control on this or that.
I wouldn't care less about religious evangelicalism if they just spread it with words. It's when EITHER side attempts to start legislating their morality that it bothers me. I don't want the greenies, the peaceniks, or the anti-gun crowd cramming their ideology down my throat through congress any more than I want the God-o-Nauts or Neo-Nazi whackos to do it. My ideas are libertarian in nature. Leave me alone. Don't touch my money. Don't touch my guns, and however you want to live your life is fine with me. I'll tolerate it, just don't expect me to endorse, validate, or accept it as normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
I've heard people claim (for example) that the gay community tries to "enlist" or "recruit" new members. All I can do is laugh at stuff like that. Is it this kind of nonsense you are trying to imply? I mean can anything be more ridiculous? If you are a heterosexual, what in the world could anyone say or do to change your sexual orientation? This is just the kind of hysterical scare tactics used to influence the stupid.... for political or financial gain. What other motivation could there be for such absurdity?
That is a preposterous claim....but not the claim I was making. Quit trying to set up the straw man...that crap doesn't fly with people who understand how it works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija
Whatever.....obviously you are an expert on San Francisco. Can you tell us how you got to be so knowledgeable on the subject?
LOL
Peace,
D.
I never claimed to be an expert on San Francisco, nor did I claim that every person there has the "values" listed above. It just seems to be the prevalent attitude I've seen every time I've been there. Considering I live about 300 miles from the city I've traveled there more than a few times. It's a beautiful place to visit...and I think most of the people there PROBABLY have their head screwed on atleast relatively straight. It's just too bad the loudest folks there are the utlra-liberal whack-jobs. They really tend to ruin the atmosphere of the city.
Edit
As a follow up I'd like to illustrate that I never intended to convey the idea that individuals should be "ready to die" to defend capitalism in itself.
The intended idea was that capitalism is an inherent part of america and one of our founding values. It is so because the basic founding principle of America is liberty, included within which the right to own any property you work for, and any system OTHER than straight-hard-and to the point capitalism directly infringes upon that basic tenet.
I have read the original text a couple of times now. What I find really interesting is where Ms. Smiley is speaking of events of 1863 in Lawerence Kansas and refers to red states as... "The red forces, known then as the slave-power". Its also interesting in what she says about the citizens of the red states.... "Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. "
I understand the geography of what became known as the red states, but in her article it sure seems to me that she was referring to the South.
Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to.
People with pride in thier state and thier country who listen to country music in the middle of the Bible Belt.
I am really sick and tired of these snobby city folk from the blue states which just happen to the whole west coast and the upper east coast for the most part looking down thier nose at us. In nearly ever case my ancestors were farmers who worked thier butts off every day to make it. Not because they cared about status, but it was because they had to do it to survive. There are lots of people like me in the South that had the same kind of ancestors who were taught the same sort of values. Be proud of what you have done, don't take a handout from the government because it means less than if you worked for it yourself, family becomes before all else. The list goes on and on. People in the South like country music because its written and performed by people that have lived the rural hard working life. People can relate to it because in many many cases they have lived it. People in the South are religious and go to church every Sunday and alot of times on Wednesday nights. They have more faith in God than they ever will in any politician.
Iffen ya dont like the stuff we say about ourselves, or the music we listen to, or if we go to church, well that is just tough. Get over, stay in your idealisic utopian glass houses and leave the rest of the hell alone.
I'd like that last little bit sent over to Ms. Smiley, I don't seem to have her address here.
The preacher man says it's the end of time and the Mississippi River she's goin' dry
The interest rate is up and the stock market's down
And you only gettin mugged if you go down town
I live back in the woods you see my woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I've got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain't too many things these old boys can't do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
Cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns
We say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn
We come from the West Virginia coal mines
And the Rocky Mountains and the western skies
And we can skin a buck we can run a trotline
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
I had a good friend in New York City he never called me by my name just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land and his taught him to be a business man
He used to send me pictures of the broadway nights I'd send him some homemade wine
But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For forty three dollars my friend lost his life
I'd love to spit some beechnut in that dude's eyes and shoot him with my ole 45
Cause a country boy can survive country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
Cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns
We say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn
We're from North California and South Alabam and little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck and run a trotline
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
A country boy can survive country folks can survive
Hank Williams Jr.
__________________ This is a perilous time, and more than ever, the world needs a united and strong America. If, God forbid, we live to see Mr. Obama president, we will live through a socialist era that America has not seen before, and our country will be weakened in every way. - Jon Voight
The problem Dave, is that tax cuts with out controling spending is not a financial advantage to anyone.
That is my problem with the last couple Republican congress and Bush.....They are spending way to much money. That is why many of us conservatives are not happy with what is going on, republicans are spending like democrats....
And all of them spend to much on Pork
__________________ XD 40 Service
If you don't Stand behind our Troops, Please feel free to Stand in front of our Troops. One Big Azz Mistake America
Well, I stand corrected about the military presense in SF....I travelled from Travis AFB in 1970. I did not know so many of the SF military installations were closed.
That aside....Berkeley being a center for left wing expression is nothing new. They were having "sit-ins" in the mid 1960s for various causes...I hadn't even heard the term before then.
Traditional values...marriage is between a man and a woman? It isn't the same everywhere?
You say "I would not want my children taught that two mommie is OK"...(which they teach in SF)? Again, I'm just confused. What does that mean? My son had "two mommies" as teachers. In fact my wife was a "mommie" who taught in a classroom with another 'mommie'. So two mommies. I'm guessing that isn't what you mean, but from the way you wrote it, it's hard to tell.
Meanwhile, assuming you meant to say that they tell kids it's OK to grow up in a home with two women who are "life partners" (or whatever the current politically correct term is), why would you care? How would it affect you (or your children) other than to make them aware that alternative lifestyles are a part of society and are not "evil". Just different.
As for the statement 'San Francisco hates the military"...LOL..how can a place have an emotion?
I'll have to try and remember to ask my son how he was greeted in SF when he arrived there during "Fleet Week"....IIRC, it was with greetings very far removed from "hate". LOL
Peace,
D.
Sorry I am not so eloquent with words as you are, english was never my strong suit in High shcool or college. Especially not writing and spelling.
I should say the majority of the people in Frisco are anti-military now. The banned the marines from doing a recruiting add in the streets of Frisco, Berkely has tried to force the recuriting offices out. Recruiters are banned from Schools. Your correct, a place has no emotion. However a city can have policies, and such that convey a general feeling that the people of that place have. I spent some time in Frisco in 2000 in Uniform, and I felt very un welcome by the general population, but not everyone, but most. It was much worse in 2006.
Point about trditional marriages is San Fransico no longer wants that. When talking about parrents in public high school, they can no longer use mom and dad as terms to discribe parrents. In public schools they have to teach that mom and mom as parents is normal, and dad and dad as parents in nomal.
My best friend has a sister, who I know very well. She has a life partner as you say. Neither of them, both commited gays, like the gay crap Frisco is trying to push down every ones neck. As she says, I do not want to be treated special, or given privelages or any thing else, just let me be me. Of course, neither of them are Liberals. They are very conservative, and you really would not know they are gay, unless you really know them.
What I have a problem with is the school teach it is ok for two women to be married, or two men. That is not what marrage is. A life partner is something different than marrage...
Personally sex ed, what is ok for two adutls to do, does not belong in school. I as a parent should be able to teach what is ok for two adults, and sex ed. Having raised three girls, they were ready to learn about sex, at different ages and grades....So how can a school decide 5th grade for example is the right time for all kids?
Why would I want a school teaching my kids about something I feel is immoral, gay sex? Frisco schools are teaching that is is ok and normal. I choose to teach it is not moral as per the Bible, nor is it normal. I do teach it is not Evil as you say, and that we should accept it... Very big differance to what Frisco is pushing. My girls were taught to treat them as you would any other person.
__________________ XD 40 Service
If you don't Stand behind our Troops, Please feel free to Stand in front of our Troops. One Big Azz Mistake America
It means that if someone chooses a lifestyle I consider immoral, rather than simply tolerating them I am considered a bigot if I speak out and say it is immoral. Now, personally I don't consider homosexuality immoral, but I don't consider those who do, and preach against it, bigots. This is of course barring the "god hates ****" folks who I think do it more for the media attention than a sense of moral superiority.
A perfect example. San Fransisco's draconic attempt to ban all handguns within city limits. Keep folks from the means to protect themselves because a few bad apples commit crimes. Sacrifice personal liberty for "The Greater Good"
San Fransisco has always been the forefront of the peace and nonviolent resistance movement in the U.S. These are good ideals in certain times but there are times to fight. I really wouldn't be surprised if they did "lay down" whatever arms they have for "nonviolent resistance"
Sorry you're having trouble understanding my post...I'll try and simplify it next time.
Here are examples
SF bans marksmanship and military history in it's JROTC classes.
If you don't understand the basic traditional values of personal liberty and choice this country was founded on, I can't really help you understand them...sorry.
Assertions based on discussions with individuals I've had from that region. Visits to San Francisco and the like. I'm sure there are patriotic, ready to fight for freedom individuals in San Francisco, they're just not very loud or outspoken about it. The prevailing attitude in the city is one of Non-violent resistance and anti-American sentiment.
Then clearly you've never lived in Reno, and seen the influx of residents who move here from the bay area and try and tote all of their overbearing big-government legislative crap with them. Attend a few town-hall meetings here and you can pick them out of the crowd easily. They're always the ones BEGGING for more government control on this or that.
I wouldn't care less about religious evangelicalism if they just spread it with words. It's when EITHER side attempts to start legislating their morality that it bothers me. I don't want the greenies, the peaceniks, or the anti-gun crowd cramming their ideology down my throat through congress any more than I want the God-o-Nauts or Neo-Nazi whackos to do it. My ideas are libertarian in nature. Leave me alone. Don't touch my money. Don't touch my guns, and however you want to live your life is fine with me. I'll tolerate it, just don't expect me to endorse, validate, or accept it as normal.
That is a preposterous claim....but not the claim I was making. Quit trying to set up the straw man...that crap doesn't fly with people who understand how it works.
I never claimed to be an expert on San Francisco, nor did I claim that every person there has the "values" listed above. It just seems to be the prevalent attitude I've seen every time I've been there. Considering I live about 300 miles from the city I've traveled there more than a few times. It's a beautiful place to visit...and I think most of the people there PROBABLY have their head screwed on atleast relatively straight. It's just too bad the loudest folks there are the utlra-liberal whack-jobs. They really tend to ruin the atmosphere of the city.
Edit
As a follow up I'd like to illustrate that I never intended to convey the idea that individuals should be "ready to die" to defend capitalism in itself.
The intended idea was that capitalism is an inherent part of america and one of our founding values. It is so because the basic founding principle of America is liberty, included within which the right to own any property you work for, and any system OTHER than straight-hard-and to the point capitalism directly infringes upon that basic tenet.
*claps*
Great post. Good use of sources/facts to back up what should be obvious about that area of the country, if you pay attention to current events.
Don't forget the ridiculous nanny-state crap either...
This spanking-ban bill has been tried over and over. I wonder if they will keep reviving it until it passes. It seems to keep gaining more momentum every time they try it.
Democrat Sally Leiber is the one behind it. Not-surprisingly, she has no children. She wants to force her values on everyone else.
That article has been done before by other left leaning writers like Paul Begalla...nothing new.
Hey, you know what...I don't care what the blue staters think of us. They are free to live under thier gun laws, taxation and other leftist wishes and I will stay here. Why should they be able to force their will and views on me or why should they be forced to live under the laws of Texas?
Let the blue-staters live with their laws under their Democrat politicians and we can live as we want. Whats wrong with that? Where is the merit in forcing others to live under a political system or in a society that does not reflect their values?
If you're left leaning...theres nobody keeping a gun to your head...move out of the red state if you find it so disgusting. I have no plans to move to CA, NY or MA and complain about their laws, taxation or politicians. Thats silly!
I do find it amusing that the blue-staters look down their noses at us. I also find it laughable that they think we're jealous of them and where they live...like we're standing outside with our noses pressed to the glass. The reality is that I could walk outside my office and ask the first 10 people I see if they'd like to move to the northeast or CA and I would bet almost all of them would say "hell no." But don't tell the bluestaters this...they are under some sort of delusion that we all want to be just like them...oh thats laughable! I have been to NYC and Chicago and have no desire to live there, however, if you find it some sort of utopia...have at it. I don't hate any particular area...some are just not for me.
That is the beauty of the USA. Every state is different and we can live in places that reflect our view and lifestyles and not have to be at each others throat. You live your way and we'll live ours. Whats wrong with that? If you don't want to live in a state that has strict gun laws or other laws you do not like...you CAN move, you know!
The in-fighting is a waste of time if you ask me. No need to hate others or force every state to have the same values and ways of life.
- Brickboy240
__________________
We've gone from Neo-Cons to Neo-Coms. Neither are desirable, if you ask me.
Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado
Volvo...the Swedish Brick!
Last edited by Brickboy240; 04-21-2008 at 12:41 PM.
I have read the original text a couple of times now. What I find really interesting is where Ms. Smiley is speaking of events of 1863 in Lawerence Kansas and refers to red states as... "The red forces, known then as the slave-power". Its also interesting in what she says about the citizens of the red states.... "Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. "
I understand the geography of what became known as the red states, but in her article it sure seems to me that she was referring to the South.
Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to.
People with pride in thier state and thier country who listen to country music in the middle of the Bible Belt.
I am really sick and tired of these snobby city folk from the blue states which just happen to the whole west coast and the upper east coast for the most part looking down thier nose at us. In nearly ever case my ancestors were farmers who worked thier butts off every day to make it. Not because they cared about status, but it was because they had to do it to survive. There are lots of people like me in the South that had the same kind of ancestors who were taught the same sort of values. Be proud of what you have done, don't take a handout from the government because it means less than if you worked for it yourself, family becomes before all else. The list goes on and on. People in the South like country music because its written and performed by people that have lived the rural hard working life. People can relate to it because in many many cases they have lived it. People in the South are religious and go to church every Sunday and alot of times on Wednesday nights. They have more faith in God than they ever will in any politician.
Iffen ya dont like the stuff we say about ourselves, or the music we listen to, or if we go to church, well that is just tough. Get over, stay in your idealisic utopian glass houses and leave the rest of the hell alone.
I'd like that last little bit sent over to Ms. Smiley, I don't seem to have her address here.
The preacher man says it's the end of time and the Mississippi River she's goin' dry The interest rate is up and the stock market's down And you only gettin mugged if you go down town I live back in the woods you see my woman and the kids and the dogs and me I've got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive And a country boy can survive country folks can survive I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too Ain't too many things these old boys can't do We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine And a country boy can survive country folks can survive Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run Cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns We say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn
We come from the West Virginia coal mines And the Rocky Mountains and the western skies And we can skin a buck we can run a trotline And a country boy can survive country folks can survive I had a good friend in New York City he never called me by my name just hillbilly My grandpa taught me how to live off the land and his taught him to be a business man He used to send me pictures of the broadway nights I'd send him some homemade wine But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife For forty three dollars my friend lost his life I'd love to spit some beechnut in that dude's eyes and shoot him with my ole 45 Cause a country boy can survive country folks can survive Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run Cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns We say grace and we say mamm if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn
We're from North California and South Alabam and little towns all around this land And we can skin a buck and run a trotline And a country boy can survive country folks can survive A country boy can survive country folks can survive
Hank Williams Jr.
Jeff, don't you know... country music rots the brain!
LOL just kiddin, I grew up on the stuff. I still love it but I'm disillusioned by it with all my favorite singers coming out as Dems like Merle Haggard, Toby Kieth, that just blew my mind.
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