"Punished with a baby"

[Frenchy]

Having a clear and very precise answer to all the hardest questions ......can certainly seem quite appeaing...

Indeed!...And if it was that easy, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

Then you should be okay with third trimester abortions, too--after all, it's not a child. The twisted logic involved in trying to have this issue both ways just blows my mind.

+1000

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

Then you should be okay with third trimester abortions, too--after all, it's not a child. The twisted logic involved in trying to have this issue both ways just blows my mind.

No, I would not be okay with that because the fetus is more fully developed at that point. And, my "logic" is consistent with the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.

[Krackels]

I heard this and I think it shows how far removed he is from the general populace.

Most people don't regard babies as punishments.

That's just one of the reasons why I'm supporting Hilary...








...for the Primary.

McCain will get my vote in the General election.

[Judge]

You know, it wouldn't be hard to ask my "expertise" before beginning a rant, or you could have even read what I said where I showed it was not my opinion but the opinion of leading physicians, in various fields - both surgical and ob/gyn....

Secondly, my 'background" keeps coming up as if I make this stuff up... so ok, here's a brief resume, file it, save it, that way if you think I say something incongruous with it, you can proudly call me on it.:

B.S. - Biochemistry - was in pre-med and worked my way thru school as a surgical assistant/O.R. Tech. I did mostly OB/GYN, thoracic and ortho. Some neuro, little urology... Was accepted into Med school at Bowman-Gray at Wake Forest, but decided to get married instead - the only field I was interested in was Pediatric Surgery and didn't want to put my new bride thru that. This also is where I had several discussions with docs/surgeons about abortion - was initially pro- but had a girlfriend who had one, and remembered going in and seeing her in tears afterward. I knew then I'd done something very wrong and earnestly started seeking answers. Ended up working with a pro-life group as a speaker/debater for years. Started a chapter at my college.

So went and got a masters in Finance - was always interested in the way money worked... sold medical supplies while I was finishing. Took some additional accounting and tax courses on the side and got my CFP - started a Fee-only Consulting practice with another individual who'd done it for a major bank. Did it 8 years (in the 80's) and had consulted with Wheelabrator Technologies and Rust Engineering on acquisitions (was adjunct faculty at the local University teaching master's students mergers and acquision valuation) and had started the world's first no-load broker dealer while structuring Reg-D offerings. I had over 70 million under management. I also had Bellsouth as a client, consulting with their senior executives on qualified and non-qualified deferred compensation plans.

Congress had passed ERISA and TEFRA, limiting a lot of what I could do, and was getting bored, so took a job with a paper company heading up a special projects division... within 3 months the corp merged with it's 5 other US divisions and my section was deemed redundant with the new corp hq. I was given a nice severance package, but was out on the street and had walked from my practice. Went with a startup company headed (President) by the former CFO of Rust Engineering (was one of the world's largest eng firms at the time) on optical imaging... Was there a year, long story dealing with fraud/misrepresentation by the CEO and the investors pulled out. Had applied to go get my doctorate, however, my wife took off, left me with a two year old daughter to raise - we split the balance sheet - she got the assets, I got the liabilities and custody of my two-year old daughter. Was the first male in my county/state to do so (attorneys told me the judges probably wouldn't agree) without proving maternal physical abuse.

Also, my mother came down with Lou Gehrig's, so had to stay in town to help take care of her. Worked painting, bouncing and security work to try to keep some money coming in. Took a job as a A/L analyst at a large bank in town - only got the job b/c I had dated the manager, who was a cheerleader in college, and she knew me. Told her I needed the job, she said I was overqualifed but said she'd give it to me if I promised to stay there a year. Told her I would, but only if I could start tomorrow.... So I did my year and moved to the trading floor in the investment division. Led the dept in new accounts, segmented into CMO's and was made a trader.
Did that for a couple of years till the market crashed in 93. Had some guys buy a fast oil change company with over 120 stores - they wanted to franchise the idea so I helped them with that. Even became a franchisee, owning 5 stores in Atlanta... but before I did that, I spent 6 months in a store, working changing oil, so I could learn the business.... After that was up and running I took a job with a regional publishing firm as CFO - which I hated the work, but loved the people. 9/11 hit during this time also. Choked the business severely, all contracts were canceled... Revenues went to zilch (we subbed out a lot of work for larger publishing houses - D&K for example.)

Daughter turned 16, I was no longer her favorite playmate, so at 44, I reapplied to doctoral programs... was accepted and entered. Just defended my dissertation, on a derivative matter, published a nice paper and have accepted a position at a well respected school.

Now, does that do it for you guys??? Do you want references too?

Originally Posted by Delija

Thanks Frank....but I didn't notice I was gone. Was I?


What does that have to do with Judge telling us (not giving an "opinion", but stating as FACT) that there is never any medical or psychological need for a specific medical procedure?

And did I not ask if his beliefs were qualified?? - by the possibility that he may be a physician? A psychologist? A woman? I thought he said he had something to do with investing in, or strategist, or teaching about "derivatives"....sounds far removed from the medical field, or the field of psycho-analysis or therapy. As for being a woman...yep, 50/50 shot there, so some possible "expertise" exists as far as that goes.
SNIP...
D.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Judge

You know, it wouldn't be hard to ask my "expertise" before beginning a rant, or you could have even read what I said where I showed it was not my opinion but the opinion of leading physicians, in various fields - both surgical and ob/gyn....

Secondly, my 'background" keeps coming up as if I make this stuff up... so ok, here's a brief resume, file it, save it, that way if you think I say something incongruous with it, you can proudly call me on it.:

B.S. - Biochemistry - was in pre-med and worked my way thru school as a surgical assistant/O.R. Tech. I did mostly OB/GYN, thoracic and ortho. Some neuro, little urology... Was accepted into Med school at Bowman-Gray at Wake Forest, but decided to get married instead - the only field I was interested in was Pediatric Surgery and didn't want to put my new bride thru that. This also is where I had several discussions with docs/surgeons about abortion - was initially pro- but had a girlfriend who had one, and remembered going in and seeing her in tears afterward. I knew then I'd done something very wrong and earnestly started seeking answers. Ended up working with a pro-life group as a speaker/debater for years. Started a chapter at my college.

So went and got a masters in Finance - was always interested in the way money worked... sold medical supplies while I was finishing. Took some additional accounting and tax courses on the side and got my CFP - started a Fee-only Consulting practice with another individual who'd done it for a major bank. Did it 8 years (in the 80's) and had consulted with Wheelabrator Technologies and Rust Engineering on acquisitions (was adjunct faculty at the local University teaching master's students mergers and acquision valuation) and had started the world's first no-load broker dealer while structuring Reg-D offerings. I had over 70 million under management. I also had Bellsouth as a client, consulting with their senior executives on qualified and non-qualified deferred compensation plans.

Congress had passed ERISA and TEFRA, limiting a lot of what I could do, and was getting bored, so took a job with a paper company heading up a special projects division... within 3 months the corp merged with it's 5 other US divisions and my section was deemed redundant with the new corp hq. I was given a nice severance package, but was out on the street and had walked from my practice. Went with a startup company headed (President) by the former CFO of Rust Engineering (was one of the world's largest eng firms at the time) on optical imaging... Was there a year, long story dealing with fraud/misrepresentation by the CEO and the investors pulled out. Had applied to go get my doctorate, however, my wife took off, left me with a two year old daughter to raise - we split the balance sheet - she got the assets, I got the liabilities and custody of my two-year old daughter. Was the first male in my county/state to do so (attorneys told me the judges probably wouldn't agree) without proving maternal physical abuse.

Also, my mother came down with Lou Gehrig's, so had to stay in town to help take care of her. Worked painting, bouncing and security work to try to keep some money coming in. Took a job as a A/L analyst at a large bank in town - only got the job b/c I had dated the manager, who was a cheerleader in college, and she knew me. Told her I needed the job, she said I was overqualifed but said she'd give it to me if I promised to stay there a year. Told her I would, but only if I could start tomorrow.... So I did my year and moved to the trading floor in the investment division. Led the dept in new accounts, segmented into CMO's and was made a trader.
Did that for a couple of years till the market crashed in 93. Had some guys buy a fast oil change company with over 120 stores - they wanted to franchise the idea so I helped them with that. Even became a franchisee, owning 5 stores in Atlanta... but before I did that, I spent 6 months in a store, working changing oil, so I could learn the business.... After that was up and running I took a job with a regional publishing firm as CFO - which I hated the work, but loved the people. 9/11 hit during this time also. Choked the business severely, all contracts were canceled... Revenues went to zilch (we subbed out a lot of work for larger publishing houses - D&K for example.)

Daughter turned 16, I was no longer her favorite playmate, so at 44, I reapplied to doctoral programs... was accepted and entered. Just defended my dissertation, on a derivative matter, published a nice paper and have accepted a position at a well respected school.

Now, does that do it for you guys??? Do you want references too?

Beats the hell out of my high school diploma...But I can live with that!

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by Delija

The whole issue of when/if/how a life begins or a fetus is or is not more than a bunch of cells....at conception? After the second trimester? When some specific guidelines of development are achieved? A heartbeat? Brainwaves? .....none of it is close to being a topic for debate IMO....'cause you con't 'debate" fundamental beliefs. We can't even really expect to influence someones perception of whether an XD is better than a Glock....a 9mm as opposed to a .40,,,,,attempting to tamper with beliefs and faith that are really (for the majority of people ...at least...I Think this to be the case.....) so deeply ingrained basically from birth that it's no more "logical" or "rational' a topic than is seeing beauty (or not) in the works of Jackson Pollack or Beethoven. Coke or Pepsi.
D,

The point of conception being like the cola wars? I get your point, but that's such a trivialization of the issue it's a bit absurd. It's only human life, after all; a matter of perception and taste...not worth debating at all. But it is debateable--and I apologize (a little bit) for being somewhat strident on this issue. To me, it's the "most debateable" issue on the ethical scene today. Our actions from a legislative POV determine whether or not it's legal for the next generation of human beings to be allowed to experience life, or killed in their mother's womb before ever taking their proper place among us and voicing their own opinions. They have no voice in the matter, which leaves it up to us--and that makes it debateable.

From the moment sperm and egg combine, that zygote has its own unique genetic code, completely separate from either the mother or father, and once attached to the inside of the uterus it will ultimately develop into a mature human infant if simply left alone. That is its sole purpose and destination. Saying that life "starts" somewhere in the middle of the process to render the termination of that life acceptable at a point previous begs the question: what was the developing child beforehand? Just a random blob of tissue like a tumor to be vacuumed out at the whim of an upset mother? As for the tired feminist-based argument of it being "part of the woman's body", the fact that the unborn draws nutrition and shelter from the womb doesn't make it any more part of the woman's body (to do with as she wants, the abortion mantra goes) than a tapeworm in the GI tract.

I call abortion America's Second Great Hypocrisy--the first was slavery. We drew up our founding documents proclaiming the noble truth "that all men are created equal etc." and then continue for a hundred years denying an entire ethnic line equal rights due to their skin color. After we got that sorted out (for the most part), we're now denying a whole class of people equal protection under the law due to the fact that they just haven't been born yet (and murdering millions every year in utero) while having the nerve to decry countries like China for their civil rights abuses. Remove the plank from your own eye, America--IMO we have zero credibility on human rights as long as this ugly and inhumane practice continues to be embraced here.

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

And, my "logic" is consistent with the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade.

Well then, my apologies--that makes it okay.

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

Well then, my apologies--that makes it okay.

I guess there is proof you can lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink.

The rationale used by the Supreme Court in 1973 is exactly what is being questioned today. The "logic" that was applied then is exactly what is being questioned today because many today, including at least one Supreme Court justice (off the top of my head), are questioning the merit. The point is that their "logic" is flawed. They focused on a woman's right to live life in equality as being based on whether or not she could have the right to choose to abort. The "logic" is flawed because it fails to address whether or not the unborn child has rights. Does the woman's right outweigh the child's right to live versus being murdered? At what point is the child considered a human being? etc, etc,...These issues are the ones that are debated and they are being debated because the Supreme Court failed to address them in 1973.

Whew...I seriously doubt that summary will get this horse to water. But anyway, the abortion debate is one that is simply not worth engaging in on a forum since it boils down to a person's religious beliefs. I cannot convince someone that a fetus is a human being with a right to life when life begins, which is defined by me (and of course, many others), as being in the womb at conception. So why bother banging heads on the internet?

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by jdavionic

So why bother banging heads on the internet?

It's what we do.