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Welcome to the XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source! forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Also, registering gets you started on gaining access to The Trading Post and Blogs after 30 days and 100 posts! Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! |
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#1 | |
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XDTalk 5K Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,727
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Bailing Out the Capitalists
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"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." (– James Madison) |
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#2 |
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XDTalk 2K Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,814
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I don' t disagree, as I've said before, and as have others, capitalism is often a horrible system, it's just better than anything else. Over the long term, a capitalist system will outperform all others and money will find it's highest and best use. The capitalist system also does ultimately punish the greed - as we are now seeing, but it can be painful - which is what the fed is trying to moderate.
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#3 |
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XDTalk 1K Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Illinois
Posts: 1,527
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I agree with much of what was stated in the article, and I also agree with the Judge's statement... capitalism is flawed, but it is the best system we have. True capitalism is self-correcting... poorly managed, poorly run businesses deserve to go belly up, and not get bailed out by the government. The answer is most definitely NOT more government intervention.
In a sense, capitalism is self-correcting... over time the badly run companies go out of business. And, by 'badly run' I'm including not just fiscal irresponsibility, but inability to adapt to market needs, inability to supply safe product, inability to keep an effective, satisfied, intelligent work force, and all the other things that go wrong. Every time a business gets insulated from the impact of the Market (you, me... we are the Market) has on it, things just get worse. The lenders who decided to lend out money sub-prime, and to high risk borrowers, took a risk we should not have to share... they (lenders) should go out of business. Keep government intervention out of business... let "business Darwinism" take its course. If FDR had kept his hands away from trying to "fix" the Great Depression when he assumed office in 1933, the Depression would likely have been over in another year or two... instead of dragging on into WWII. Instead, the Federal government put in place a US version of communism's "Central Planning." As a side thought: Can anyone point out an economic system that works - not theoretically but in real practice - better than capitalism? |
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#4 |
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XDTalk 5K Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 8,919
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Well, isnt' alot of what we're seeing right now, the unintended consequences of the left?
Many years ago, if you did not have good credit or money to put down on a home - you could not BUY a home. Back then, credit cards and all sorts of creative financing from banks and credit unions just did not exist. Basically, if you did not save your money and live below your means and were not responsible for paying your bills on time - you did NOT get credit or loans, period. Then, many on the left, who always spout this "level playing field" nonsense, petitioned the govt. and the lending/banking industry for changes in their policies. They claimed that by having high standards for lending and requiring cash down payments, etc. some people were being denied "the American Dream." It all sounded so sad and convincing but the stone cold truth was that the banking industry was protecting itself and actually doing a favor for those who were not economically responsible. But...many politicians caved and passed newer laws for the banking and lending industry that pretty much forced this industry to loan money to those who did not show economic stability or responsibility. The banking/lending industry has always been about making money for themselves and after losing their collective shirts on open credit card issuance in the early 1970s, they went ahead with lending to these questionable indivduals...BUT...they were going to make sure that the industry made money FIRST on these people...before they defaulted. So the banks and lending institutions lent money on all those shaky and creative sub-prime mortgages. They knew damn well that many of these would end up in foreclosure, but were pressured to lend to people that had no business signing for these mortgages. The banking/lending industry was not surprised by the massive defaults and forclosures and place the blame on the borrowers. As much as this pains many of you...the banking industry is right in their assumption. Those individuals that lost their homes would not be in this position..IF...they had taken more responsiblilty in their economic behavoir. If they had lived below their means, saved money and been more careful with their spending...none of that mess would have happened to them. This is a huge problem in this country and nobody is willing to face the cold hard fact that the root of all of this is the economic irresponsiblilty of the individual. We blame the banks or lending institutions or govt. for bailing out these Wall Street banks, but if a majority of individuals had been more responsible with THEIR OWN MONEY...none of this would have happened. Should DC have to bail out these banks? Well, DC is largely responsible for the lending law changes...are they not? The banks and DC share in the responsiblilty for this mess. Washington is responsible for allowing lending law changes and the banks are responsible because they set up the irresponsible lending and carried it through. The individual who signed for the loan also bears responsiblilty because they knew well that this was somehting they would not be able to follow through on. The fingerpointing in this little mess has become a fulltime sport..has it not? Well ,the bottom line for us, the individuals is still the fact that it is best for all of us, if we learn to live within our means and save money for the future. If that means not buying the latest gadget or huge house or new car...well...we need to have the will power to resist the media and the free market's pushy advertising and hold back. This is, I believe, the root of all conservatism....to CONSERVE! - Brickboy240
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The top 25% of wage earners in America pay 86% of all federal income taxes collected. (according to 2007 IRS website data) Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado Volvo...the Swedish Brick! |
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#5 | |
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XDTalk 1K Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Titusville, FL
Posts: 1,333
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#6 | |
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XDTalk 1K Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Illinois
Posts: 1,527
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I know it's a bit off-topic, but I've done a bit of reading on FDR's impact on the Great Depression. The most frightening thing to come of this reading is the reality of "Unintended Consequences." No good deed goes unpunished.
Below is an overview of FDR and the Depression (most of which was plagiarized from a good resource at the Independent Institute in an effort to be concise). It is long, but I think it is a great illustration of unintended consequences resulting from economic intervention: Quote:
Last edited by jmichna : 03-18-2008 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Fix numerous typos |
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#7 | |
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XDTalk 5K Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,727
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Quote:
Blaming the left for the greed of Bear Stearns is quite the stretch, Brickboy.
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"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." (– James Madison) |
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#8 |
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XDTalk 5K Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 8,919
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So...the people that wanted a "level playing field' and encouraged the loosening of lending practices bear no part of the blame?
Really? I am not buying that. If the lending industry was allowed to keep their high standards for lending...we'd likely not be in this mess. - brickboy240
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The top 25% of wage earners in America pay 86% of all federal income taxes collected. (according to 2007 IRS website data) Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado Volvo...the Swedish Brick! |
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#9 |
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XDTalk 1K Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 1,038
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Boy, we sure have a lot of class envy going around today, don't we?
The first sentence of the column gives it away: E. J. Dionne has no understanding of the principles of a free market economy. Posing the question in terms of how "brilliant" capitalists are or whether they "deserve" seven figure salaries is a dead giveaway. Only someone committed to collectivism would talk about wages in terms of what someone "deserves". The BMW->Saturn line is a nice collectivist cliché as well.
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I felt early on I wasn't going to be a respectable citizen. -- Cormac McCarthy We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. |
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#10 | |
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XDTalk 5K Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,727
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Quote:
It was deregulation that caused this problem. You know, I find it odd that a person who decries leftists and socialists like you do would be such a fan of an automobile (Volvo) that is manufactured in one of the most socialistic countries in Europe!
__________________
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." (– James Madison) |
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