Ted Kennedy, Minimun Wage

[TxPete68]

Originally Posted by bd

As usual there are a lot of opinions stated as fact on this topic.

Such as....



but we've come to expect that.

Here are some facts.

4.3 million: Number of Americans who have fallen into poverty since President Bush took office

$5.15: Federal minimum wage

26%: How much the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage has eroded since 1979

0: Number of times minimum wage has increased since 1997

7: Number of times Congress has increased its own pay since 1997

$0: How much more a year people earning minimum wage earn today compared to 1997

$28,500: How much more a year members of Congress make today compared to 1997

$10,700: Amount a person making minimum wage will earn in a year

$5,000: Amount below the poverty level working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year at minimum wage will leave a family of three

7,300,000: Number of workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

72%: Percentage of adult workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

1,800,000: Number of parents with kids under the age of 18 who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

11 million: Number of jobs added to the economy in the four years after the last minimum wage hike

$8.70: Amount minimum wage would have to be today to have the same purchasing power it had in 1968

2.5 years: Amount of health care for two children which could be bought by raising the minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.25

86%: Percentage of Americans who support raising the federal minimum wage




bd

None of those points address the fact that the average wage in the country is a little over $17/hr. So this minimum wage hike will actually impact very lfew number of people. I see signs at the fast food places here in San Antonio that are already offering between $7 and $9/hr. So will a minimum wage hike affect them?... not likely. Also, I ould like to know how they arbitrarily arrived at $7.25 For a full time job, that only equates to a little over 15k/annum. Why not make it $10, $15, or even $20/hr? Why only $7.25? If they "really" wanted to improve the lives of those making minimum wage, they would make substantial increases... but they don't because they know that it doesn't really make a difference.

Consider this: Workers making the minimum wage and just above it,

• Over half were teenagers or adults under 25 years old
• A third were enrolled in school
• More than half were voluntary part-time workers
• Only seven percent were heads of poor families
• Their average family income is $45,200

So only 3% of the popluation makes minimum wage, and only 7% of those 3% are heads of poor families. So, if my math is correct, only .21% of US Head of Household wage earners are making at or near minimum wage.

But what minimum wage increases do is harm those they are supposed to help since they:

• Artificially increase the cost of unskilled labor
• Encourage employers to minimize their demand for low-wage employees, either by using more machines or by changing the way that they offer services.
• Creates a surplus of unemployed unskilled workers, further depressing bargaining power.
• Draw young students away from school, and into the labor market prematurely. This causes teenage unemployment to rise

People need to realize that business owners practice free market economy, whether the government likes it or not. As a business owner, I am not going to pay someone more than the job has value to me just because the govenment says I need to. I would untimately eliminate those "entry level" positions and transfer whatever duties they performed to other workers. If I'm paying Joe Highschoolkid $5.15 now, to perform some mindless labor, and paying Tim Fatherof2kids $13.00 to supervise and mentor him, and the Gvm't comes along and tells me to pay Joe $7/hr. I'm going to let him go, tell Tim do to his job and that he is going to get a raise to $15.00. Therefore, I am still getting the same amount of work done and saving some money too. Unless I can replace Joe with a machine to perform he work he used to to.

Economists realize that free market economy is how the real world works, and that is why so few economists support minimum wage hikes.

Pete

[TxPete68]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Republicans by nature are greedy bastards. Raising the minimum wage means money out of their pockets and into the working mans. Pat

How does it take money out of the pockets of the Republicans?

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

I have to laugh when companies complain that they will have to pass on the costs to the consumer. Like it would freaking kill them to eat 2 bucks an hour and pay a living wage.Pat

What people don't understand is that I am in business to make myself money. That is want capitalism is all IS. I did not take all the risk, invest all the money and put in all the effort to start my own company just to give YOU a job. I did it to make ME money. It is a business, not a charity. The only reason I have employees is because it enables me to make more money. If at any point an employee is costing me more money then value he is adding, that employee will find himself without a job. To run a business otherwise is irresponsible, it sets the business up for failure and ultimately the failure of small business is very bad for the economy.

Pete

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by TxPete68

How does it take money out of the pockets of the Republicans?



What people don't understand is that I am in business to make myself money. That is want capitalism is all IS. I did not take all the risk, invest all the money and put in all the effort to start my own company just to give YOU a job. I did it to make ME money. It is a business, not a charity. The only reason I have employees is because it enables me to make more money. If at any point an employee is costing me more money then value he is adding, that employee will find himself without a job. To run a business otherwise is irresponsible, it sets the business up for failure and ultimately the failure of small business is very bad for the economy.

Pete

Rebulblicans are the big buisness owners in the country and the ones having to pay the minimum wage.

Also yes I understand your goal as a buisness owner is to make money at all costs. You need employees to do that. The employees are offering your a service that they should be compensated for at a fair rate. Thats why we need unions and labor laws to keep guys like you from screwing your employees. Because without them you would not be able to make money. You should have to pay a at the very minimum a living wage. Pure capatalism is very evil more so than pure socialism. Mexico is a good example of what can happen when capitalism is left unchecked. You will have a small class of very wealthy people and a very large class of very poor people. Thats starting to happen in this country.
Pat

[FrankRizzoXD40]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Rebulblicans are the big buisness owners in the country and the ones having to pay the minimum wage.

Some statistics, please, that show that all big business owners are republicans.

Thanks in advance,

Frank

[FrankRizzoXD40]

Originally Posted by TxPete68

None of those points address the fact that the average wage in the country is a little over $17/hr. So this minimum wage hike will actually impact very lfew number of people. I see signs at the fast food places here in San Antonio that are already offering between $7 and $9/hr. So will a minimum wage hike affect them?... not likely. Also, I ould like to know how they arbitrarily arrived at $7.25 For a full time job, that only equates to a little over 15k/annum. Why not make it $10, $15, or even $20/hr? Why only $7.25? If they "really" wanted to improve the lives of those making minimum wage, they would make substantial increases... but they don't because they know that it doesn't really make a difference.

Consider this: Workers making the minimum wage and just above it,

• Over half were teenagers or adults under 25 years old
• A third were enrolled in school
• More than half were voluntary part-time workers
• Only seven percent were heads of poor families
• Their average family income is $45,200

So only 3% of the popluation makes minimum wage, and only 7% of those 3% are heads of poor families. So, if my math is correct, only .21% of US Head of Household wage earners are making at or near minimum wage.

But what minimum wage increases do is harm those they are supposed to help since they:

• Artificially increase the cost of unskilled labor
• Encourage employers to minimize their demand for low-wage employees, either by using more machines or by changing the way that they offer services.
• Creates a surplus of unemployed unskilled workers, further depressing bargaining power.
• Draw young students away from school, and into the labor market prematurely. This causes teenage unemployment to rise

People need to realize that business owners practice free market economy, whether the government likes it or not. As a business owner, I am not going to pay someone more than the job has value to me just because the govenment says I need to. I would untimately eliminate those "entry level" positions and transfer whatever duties they performed to other workers. If I'm paying Joe Highschoolkid $5.15 now, to perform some mindless labor, and paying Tim Fatherof2kids $13.00 to supervise and mentor him, and the Gvm't comes along and tells me to pay Joe $7/hr. I'm going to let him go, tell Tim do to his job and that he is going to get a raise to $15.00. Therefore, I am still getting the same amount of work done and saving some money too. Unless I can replace Joe with a machine to perform he work he used to to.

Economists realize that free market economy is how the real world works, and that is why so few economists support minimum wage hikes.

Pete

Good post.

Frank

[FrankRizzoXD40]

Originally Posted by bd

As usual there are a lot of opinions stated as fact on this topic.

Such as....

but we've come to expect that.

You don't think it is a fact that businesses will raise their prices if the minimum wage is increased? Who eats the cost, bd? A small business owner already proved that statement is a fact when he talked about how much more it would cost him to do business if the minimum wage is increased. Good try though (good to know that I'm off your ignore list, at least).

Originally Posted by bd

Here are some facts.

4.3 million: Number of Americans who have fallen into poverty since President Bush took office

That's 1.4% of the population.

Originally Posted by bd

$10,700: Amount a person making minimum wage will earn in a year

That's not entirely true. Can anyone tell me how many states actually use $5.15/hr for their minimum wage? In Maine, it is around 7/hr. $10,700 is also almost EXACTLY what the standard deduction is. That means that all of that money is tax free.

Originally Posted by bd

7,300,000: Number of workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

So we should raise the minimum wage to benefit 2.43% of the population? Do you think that is worth raising prices for EVERYONE, including small business owners??? Isn't it funny that you don't hear liberals telling us that their proposed minimum wage increase will only benefit 2.43% of the US population???

Originally Posted by bd

72%: Percentage of adult workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

Please explain how you can say that 2.43% of workers will benefit from an increased in the minimum wage AND 72% of adult workers will benefit from an increase at the same time??? Those two statements don't really agree with each other, bd.

Originally Posted by bd

1,800,000: Number of parents with kids under the age of 18 who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage

Again, I'm not sure how your math works (or how the math of whatever left-wing blog you got this information from), but if 72% of adult workers will benefit how will only 0.5% of parents benefit??

Originally Posted by bd

11 million: Number of jobs added to the economy in the four years after the last minimum wage hike

Do you really think that increasing the minimum wage stimulates the economy? I think it's time to give Ted Kennedy his bottle of scotch back...

That is like saying "bd has been a member of XD talk for 5 years; during those 5 years the economy has added 10 million jobs" and then giving bd credit for the good economy.

And finally.....a look at the source of where bd got his information (since he "FORGOT" to list a source):

www.thinkprogress.org , a left-wing site which has this as one of their goals "fighting against a radical right-wing agenda". Their homepage is full of articles attacking conservatives.

Other sites that come up when I google bd's "facts":

1. socialistworker.org

2. desertratdemocrat.com , another left-wing blog

Frank

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Like it would freaking kill them to eat 2 bucks an hour and pay a living wage. Pat

Lets say you owned a lawn care business and paid a bunch of high school kids $5.15/hr to mow lawns. If you employ 20 kids the hourly pay equals $103 for all your employees. Thats $824 per day, $4120 per week. Over the course of a summer that is $49440.

If the feds raise the minimum wage, the costs go to pay all the employees goes to $145/hr, $1160 per day, $5800 per week. For the 3 months of the summer break it is $69,600. That's $20,000 extra over 3 months. Where will that extra money come from? The customers.

The problem with this debate is that most people in the country have never tried to operate a business. It's a complex job that gets little appreciation from the employee. The employee usually just wants a paycheck and will do as little as possible to get it. What they don't realize is that their livlihood depends on employers staying in business. Staying in business is a difficult combination of giving the customer what they want for the price they are willing to spend and paying your employees enough that they want to work for you all while trying to make enough extra so you can pay yourself something. The companies that will be hit the hardest by the minimum wage increase are not the huge corporations, but the little guys, the companies with less than 100 employees. You know them, the local grocery stores, the diner on the corner, the mom & pop convienience store you stop at for a snack and gas on your way home at night.

Minimum wage jobs are not jobs for the average head of household. They are for those that want part-time work. The notion that the evil rich are getting richer by paying someone minimum wage rather than a living wage is ridiculous. For that matter, what is a living wage? It depends on where you live. In some locations $30,000/yr is barely enough to put a roof over your head and have food to eat. In other places $30,000/yr is a pretty nice wage.

[TxPete68]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Also yes I understand your goal as a buisness owner is to make money at all costs. You need employees to do that. The employees are offering your a service that they should be compensated for at a fair rate.

They are compensated at a fair rate. And that rate is determined by a number of factors. Such as what the customer is willing to pay, how much that individual employee contributes, what the labor market is like in a particular area for a particular job, etc. These all contribute to paying what the market will bear. This is what a free market economy is all about. What is fair is whatever someone agrees to work for, and what I am willing to pay. And is it self regulating. If the going rate for a particular job is $6 and I am willing to pay $12, that is unfair to me and I will be unable to keep a business operating because the market will not support the price I have to charge in order to pay that wage. Conversely, if the going rate is $12 and I pay $6, that is unfair to the employee and I will not be able to keep a business operating because I will be unable to retain employees. So if you leave it alone, what do you get? a fair market value wage.

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Thats why we need unions and labor laws to keep guys like you from screwing your employees. Because without them you would not be able to make money. You should have to pay a at the very minimum a living wage.

And who determines what a minimum living wage is? If someone is wants more money, they can get more training/education, assume more responsibilities and earn more money. Or they can aquire the skills needed to get a better paying job. In reality, those people that are "stuck" in minimum wage, dead-end jobs, are those without the motivation to better themselves, or they are happy where they are. For the most part, minimum wage jobs are just that, jobs. They are not careers.

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

Pure capatalism is very evil more so than pure socialism. Mexico is a good example of what can happen when capitalism is left unchecked.

Capitalism is the only moral system because it requires human beings to deal with one another as traders--that is, as free moral agents trading and selling goods and services on the basis of mutual consent.

Capitalism is the only just system because the sole criterion that determines the value of thing exchanged is the free, voluntary, universal judgement of the consumer. Coercion and fraud are anathema to the free-market system.

It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind. Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one’s birth or station in life.
Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient.

Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living.


The morality of socialism can be summed-up in two words: envy and self-sacrifice. Envy is the desire to not only possess another’s wealth but also the desire to see another’s wealth lowered to the level of one’s own. Socialism’s teaching on self-sacrifice was nicely summarized by two of its greatest defenders, Hermann Goering and Bennito Mussolini. The highest principle of Nazism (National Socialism), said Goering, is: "Common good comes before private good." Fascism, said Mussolini, is " a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests…realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies."
Socialism is the social system which institutionalizes envy and self-sacrifice: It is the social system which uses compulsion and the organized violence of the State to expropriate wealth from the producer class for its redistribution to the parasitical class.

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

You will have a small class of very wealthy people and a very large class of very poor people. Thats starting to happen in this country.
Pat

You are correct - liberals are turning us into a socialist country.

Pete

[TxPete68]

Originally Posted by gsh341

Lets say you owned a lawn care business and paid a bunch of high school kids $5.15/hr to mow lawns. If you employ 20 kids the hourly pay equals $103 for all your employees. Thats $824 per day, $4120 per week. Over the course of a summer that is $49440.

If the feds raise the minimum wage, the costs go to pay all the employees goes to $145/hr, $1160 per day, $5800 per week. For the 3 months of the summer break it is $69,600. That's $20,000 extra over 3 months. Where will that extra money come from? The customers.

The problem with this debate is that most people in the country have never tried to operate a business. It's a complex job that gets little appreciation from the employee. The employee usually just wants a paycheck and will do as little as possible to get it. What they don't realize is that their livlihood depends on employers staying in business. Staying in business is a difficult combination of giving the customer what they want for the price they are willing to spend and paying your employees enough that they want to work for you all while trying to make enough extra so you can pay yourself something. The companies that will be hit the hardest by the minimum wage increase are not the huge corporations, but the little guys, the companies with less than 100 employees. You know them, the local grocery stores, the diner on the corner, the mom & pop convienience store you stop at for a snack and gas on your way home at night.

Minimum wage jobs are not jobs for the average head of household. They are for those that want part-time work. The notion that the evil rich are getting richer by paying someone minimum wage rather than a living wage is ridiculous. For that matter, what is a living wage? It depends on where you live. In some locations $30,000/yr is barely enough to put a roof over your head and have food to eat. In other places $30,000/yr is a pretty nice wage.

+1.

In reality what would probably happen in your example is customers would not be willing to support the price increase, and the SMB owner can not afford to eat the cost. So he will do the same work at $7.25/hr with 14 employees. His employees will be expected to work harder because they are making more money and they will have to because there will be less of them. The work load won't change. Perhaps, if the market supports it, he can have a small increase and keep 16-17 employees, but ultimately, if the market doosen't support the increase - jobs will be lost. So to keep all things equal in your example, job cost and end price, the minimum wage increase would end up costing 6 jobs at this lawncare company.

The supporters of the minimum wage hike have to realize that it will cause either a rise in the cost of goods, or a rise in unemployment, and probably a combination of both.

Pete

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by gsh341

The problem with this debate is that most people in the country have never tried to operate a business.

+ 100 That would include the majority of the members of congress, on both sides of the aisle. Career politicians make scary "business" decisions!

It all looks peachy keen when you're lecturing about the ideal economic circumstances while sucking up a professors or politicians salary. Until you've had to stare at your very own balance sheet affecting your very own bank account it is only theory.



... as usual bd comes late to the game, copies and pastes, and leaves. Wanker.