The literal Bible

[XDAndMe]

Originally Posted by hightower

As far as the Bible being interpreted as literal or figurative...as some have discussed on here the Bible is both...it is also very symbolic. God didn't write the Bible, it was written by His prophets here on earth under His command. I believe that God continues to call prophets, inspired men who can shed light on all the confusion and different interpretations of passages of scripture. He called them in days of old, and in our crazy world, wouldn't we need them now more than ever to act as a mouthpeice for God just like in the days of Moses? Just my .02 cents.

This is true, and it's a good reality check for me, too. I don't claim that what I say about the Bible is indeed right. I'm just saying that this is how it makes sense to me currently and that I'm having trouble accepting the logic behind other, more strictly literal interpretations.

[XDAndMe]

Originally Posted by Broadside

The law of moses was lived up until Jesus was crusified which fulfilled the law. The Old Testament had some pretty strick stuff to govern Gods people and the tribes. Same goes with Islam which is where some of the rules they have stem from like idol worship which was popular in that time period. Christians, Jews and Islam are a sematic base religions meaning they stem from the same begining. Difference between the three are they break off at different times. Abraham, Issac, Ishmael and Jacob (Israel) is where Islam breaks off. Christians break off at the birth of Jesus Christ and Jews stay the course. I've seen a timeline and more detail behind what I've posted. But would need to find it again.

So by that statement, a Jew living today should have no problem with the buying & selling of slaves... even their own daughters. ???

One common complaint that Jews have about Christians is that they believe we misinterpret much of the Old Testament. It could be that I'm misinterpreting this passage, too and that Judaism does not condone slavery. But if you're saying they stayed the course, which basically means the Old Testament is the bedrock of Judaism, then how else can that text be interpreted? I'd love to hear from a knowledgeable Jew.

[cjive134]

Originally Posted by XDAndMe

The Old Testament was written in the context of the culture at that time and place. Slavery was common and normal, and it does not surprise me that they would have made a religious law about it. It takes a minimal amount of intelligence to realize that our culture today doesn't work that way, so those passeges might not have much application to us. However the Bible should not be edited. It has already suffered from the hands of man throughout the ages being organized and reorganized. Better to preserve as much material as possible and make an informed choice about how to read & interpret it in the context of today. That's just my personal opinion, though.

You don't seem to take everything in the bible in a literal sense. I'm merely making a point that somethings in the bible can't be taken literally, and some are no longer useful. Things like putting ones neighbor to death for working on the sabbath aren't useful anymore, and if we are to dismiss somethings from the bible can't we dismiss others? Take homosexuality for instance. I'm sure that in the biblical times there was a valid reason for banning this sort of activity, the same as eating pork or shellfish, but they aren't really big issues anymore.

[sammi]

Originally Posted by Krackels

The problem is the bible doesn't say anything other than God created the earth, animals, plants, and all that we know in 6 days and rested on the seventh.

Originally Posted by Krackels

If God didn't create everything in six 24 hour days, why would the bible say that He had. If the creation account from the bible differs from what actually happens then the bible is wrong and even decptive. That's a problem.

If the bible is lying about creation, then one could reasonably assume that it's lying about any number of other things.

So Korah and his rebelious compatriots and their family must not've been literally swallow up by the earth.

God must not've given the stone tablets of the ten commandments to Moses. Moses must've been hallucinating when he saw the burning bush. and on an on and on.

Either take the bible as a whole or throw it all out. I'll have no Jefferson bibles here.

I can see where you are coming from. As a Muslim this also occurs with some "Muslims" in our times. It’s a disease that is spreading I think. The more people “have it easy” in life the less they begin to think about the wonders of our creation and of God. Some Muslims may deny the miracles that some prophets (with gods permission) have done. For example, that Jesus was born from a virgin or that he raised the dead or healed the leper, or that Jesus was raised to heaven. They might say this is just stories or metaphors ect.… but Allah tells us this specifically in the Quraan. So a question we pose to them is… do you think god lied to you?? Why would He tell you these things then? So it’s incredible that they still call themselves Muslims (submitters to God) yet they believe God lied to them. Kind of a contradiction I think. This is why this matter in Islam is very serious to the point that it can take someone out of the fold of Islam!

Some of the things I thought would be interesting to share., is that Muslims also believe that Allah created the heavens and earth in 6 days, but we don’t believe he rested on the 7. We believe he can create them in an order “be and it is”. So we also get this question…why in 6 days if he can do it in a matter of seconds!??? So a possible answer for this that we give would be as follows:

This shows us that as humans who need to be taught we should learn from the creator when he tells us these things. It can be a lesson for mankind to learn that although Allah is cable of creating the universe in a split second, he created them in 6 days so that humans will perform their actions, and lead there lives according to a pre arranged plan and pre planned procedure so they are not hasty in doing things. He created it in that period of time so humans can learn from his example that they may follow exact procedure and plan their activities and in a way think it over… they have their short coming so they defiantly do need time and pre thinking. So in a way an indication to the creature of god that they should follow a pre planned and well thought action in their daily affairs in dealing with their various activities. In our verse concerning this the quran hinted to this though not directly andin the end of th verse it said... ---to test mankind which among you is best of action--- . So Allah said best and action, not more and action. The emphasis here is not on quantity but on quality. So the people should give a lot of thought on planning and a lot of thought on planning thigs as best as they can , so that the result of their work will be worthwhile and will be acceptable by god. So this doesn’t mean that we should deny that he created them in 6 days. God can do what ever he wants, for whatever reason in his ultimate wisdom he chooses. But these things are only for people who choose to ponder about the creation.


I also found it interesting about the 1 day is a thousand years issue, Allah also tell us

[32:5-9] He arranges {every} affair from the heavens to the earth, then it {affair} will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning {i.e. reckoning of our present world's time}. That is He, the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen, the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful. Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his offspring from semen of worthless water {male and female sexual discharge}.Then He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him the soul {created by Allaah for that person}, and He gave you hearing, sight and hearts. Little is the thanks you give!

So concerning the 1000 days based on our explanation I found out that the deeds are raised up to the place of recording above the lowest heaven. The distance between heaven and earth is the distance of five hundred years travelling, and the thickness of the heaven is the distance of five hundred years. Mujahid, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak said, "The distance covered by the angel when he descends or ascends is the distance of five hundred years, but he covers it in the blink of an eye.''

[XDAndMe]

Originally Posted by cjive134

Take homosexuality for instance. I'm sure that in the biblical times there was a valid reason for banning this sort of activity, the same as eating pork or shellfish, but they aren't really big issues anymore.

I have to differ on that point. Homosexuality continues to violate a natural law in that it cannot result in reproduction. In biological terms, we only have 2 reasons to be alive: survival and reproduction. Technically, reproduction is our reason for existence-- proliferation of the species; but survival is a pre-requisite for that because you can't reproduce if you're dead. Ergo, homosexuality is not conducive to the one thing we are meant to do. If it violates a natural law, then obviously it still isn't good for us, so it violates God's law too. That's my take on it.

[XDAndMe]

Originally Posted by sammi

I can see where you are coming from. As a Muslim this also occurs with some "Muslims" in our times. It’s a disease that is spreading I think. The more people “have it easy” in life the less they begin to think about the wonders of our creation and of God.

By "have it easy," do you mean educated?

I don't think not reading every single part of the Bible literally in any way makes one an inferior Christian. Even the church has fallen away from a strictly literal interpretation of every part of the Bible. For some reason though, many protestants are stuck on the strictly literal mindset.

As was mentioned earlier, I believe that different parts of the Bible have to be read in different ways. The New Testament is much safer to read in a strictly literal sense than the Old Testament, but still not completely.

Respectfully, I feel that many Christians (maybe even some Muslims) are stuck in an outmoded interpretation of the text, which in the context of today's world, is actually dangerous. Look at some of the practices of Islam. Some parts of the Islamic world under strict interpretation of the Qu'ran punish a woman by death if she is found to be in the company of a man other than a close family member. Am I the only one that takes issue with that?

[sammi]

What i meant when i said "have it easy" is by having soo much technology at our fingertips that we tend to take some things for granted and assume that science led us to all of this and god had nothing to do with it.

As for your other comment on Muslim women, the Islamic texts do not say a woman should be killed for being alone with a man. I think you are referring to the punishment for adultery. For a male or female committing adultery (which is having sex with another woman/man while you are married) is punishable by death, and this is the same in the OT.

For the other part of your question.. the sincere Muslim will not say that he or she can change the laws of god because he thinks that his guidance it better than the prophets guidance. It comes down to this, and I have to be honest here, If somebody truly believes in god, I don't think you will find this person questioning the laws that God has made mandatory for his creation to abide by...and what law would you like to abide by, a law made by men which is imperfect or a law made by the one who knows his creation and already knows what works and what doesn’t work, and knows what is best for you because he knows you more than you know your own self? If a logical person were to ponder on this, he HAS to come to a conclusion that if god is perfect which He is, then his laws MUST be perfect for us for all of time. (This is with the message of Islam of course I cannot speak of the previous messages such as those given to Jesus and Moses ectt.. as we believe these were only sent for a specific people and for a specific time period)

[XDAndMe]

Originally Posted by sammi

(This is with the message of Islam of course I cannot speak of the previous messages such as those given to Jesus and Moses ectt.. as we believe these were only sent for a specific people and for a specific time period)

That's my point about the Old Testament: specific people, specific time period. That doesn't mean the teachings only apply to the Israelites, but that the teachings are written in a manner that they could comprehend in reference to their cultural practices.

You claim that the Qu'ran is exempt from this culture-specific literature and that it must be interpreted literally because God doesn't lie. My question to you is what makes the Qu'ran so different? Either the Qu'ran is somehow special in a way that the Bible isn't, or the Islamic people have kept their culture relatively the same throughout the years (ie., not much cultural progress). Those are the only two ways that Qu'ran can still apply in a completely literal sense today. It's either magical in some way... which I doubt because the text of the Qu'ran doesn't just change itself to suit cultural changes, or (the more plausible explanation) the followers are relatively stubborn and behind the times in their ways. Honestly, if it were still a male-dominated society where we had rule over our women, I wouldn't want to change that either I completely understand...

I'm joking, but the point I want to make is, I still feel that it is dangerous to follow all the old writings verbatim.

I know what you're going to say. You're going to say that God knows what is best and that anyone that doesn't follow the law verbatim is not following God. Personally, I feel that's an excuse to remain stubborn.

[sammi]

Well as we say the Quran (recital in English) is the greatest miracle which God brought with the prophet Mohammad. For one and I am not boasting here, the Quran is the only book in the world today that has not been changed in 1400 years. We have the original copy written during the times of the disciples in a museum in turkey. This quran when compared to the one I have at home is identical. It was revealed in the Arabic language the language that was spoken at that time. People memorise this book and are taught to memorise this book at a young age. The practice of reciting it from cover to cover every year during the month of Ramadan still goes on. We have over 12 million people who have it memorised including kids as young as 4. This is one reason why we haven’t lost the original script sent down. If god wanted his scripture to be preserved he would do it, and so he did. As for the other scriptures, they were not meant to be for our time this is why we do not posses them in there entirety. As muslims we already knew it as going to be preserved first and formost because god already told us.

[15:9] Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr {i.e. the Quraan} and surely, We will guard it {from corruption}.

Another thing to note is that the Quran is not a science book but it does contain scientific facts that were not known to a human being 1400 years ago. You can listen to what non-muslim scientists some of whom are atheists had to say about them. http://www.islamtomorrow.com/proofs/ So Islam does not contradict science, but it actually proves science so there is no confrontation there.

Now about the issue with culture ect… Islam frees it self from blind following cultural rituals and these sorts of things. A Muslim obeys God before anything else, so no matter if you are Chinese or American a Muslim will place the words of god before any other. If this religion only came down to the Arabs then only the Arabs would be Muslim, but the fact is only about 27% I think or less of Muslims are Arabs. So what started off from an arab country not only crossed borders but must have crossed the hearts and minds of people of different nationalities. Indonesia has more Muslims. A Chinese muslim would have the same identical quran that I would have at home. This for me at least proves that it isn’t just a culture thing and this is why it didn’t loose its effect on people. And we see this in today’s time, again not to boast but the fastest growing religion in the united states and in the world is Islam with more women becoming Muslim then men. This shows that it is not for just a specific people or just a specific time. But as Muslims we already knew this and we knew that Islam was going grow like this FIRST and FOREMOST because god said it in the Quraan, when he said

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion."

and when The Prophet Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) prophesized it when he said: "Verily, this affair shall reach as far as the day and night reach. Allaah shall not leave any house, whether made of clay/brick or animal hides, except that He has made this Deen (Islam) to enter into it, honouring the honourable ones, disgracing the disgraced: an honour that Allaah bestows upon Islam; and a disgrace that He disgraces disbelief with."

[XDAndMe]

Ok, sammi. I thank you for your explanation, but I don't wish to continue the debate about Islam because the only thing I'm going to get is religious explanations of why the Quran is right. No one is willing to sit down and reason with me on a logical level. It's what "God said" and that's it. Frankly, I'm growing increasingly impatient with the unwillingess many religous people have to question what they believe and why. I understand that faith takes just that; faith. Yet, how faith should be taken is a different story.

I understand your Quran tells you that you have to listen to it. What I'm after is a discussion on why it is or isn't appropriate to put the writings in proper context-- and not just taken literally all the time. I'm not looking for answers like "because the Bible or Quran says so." Sure it says so. Sure it says that God says so. It's also a several thousand year old compilation. Surely we can expand our thought process outside the box a little bit....

Case in point. The Bible says "Give unto Caeser that which is Caesar's." Well, where the hell is Caesar? Maybe there's an underlying teaching that I need to take from it, instead? Maybe it means I should pay my taxes?