What was the Pope thinking?

[Delija]

I am not tuned into the politics of religion. Generally a good idea to avoid such topics in polite dinner conversation, etc. Or even on gun forums. But I'm just curious and you guys are part of my contact with the outside world, so who better to ask?

Seems to me to be a hard topic to understand and I don't even know if it's possible for people to discuss this kind of thing without bringing their personal beliefs, perspectives, and emotions into their thought processes.

But when I read that the Pope quoted something allegedly said by some Byzantine emperor (or whatever the guy's job was) six or seven or eight hundred years ago, who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, as “evil and inhuman", I was just simply shocked. It was on the front page of today's newspaper as well as on my Internet home-page (MSNBC.com).

Really....what was he thinking? Was there an upside?

Now I've read (skimmed really) that the (always particularly sensitive) Muslim Arabs in "Palestine" are burning churches (as well as effigies of the pope) in the West Bank, Gaza, wherever (I really could not bear to read the details carefully...it was just too upsetting and senseless to me).

Again, this is completely out of my realm of general interest. I had even forgotten the current Pope's name until I read it today. I was just getting used to John Paul II (seemed like a good guy to me from the little I knew). But does this mean that we are in for trouble between the Catholic Church and Islam?

As we know, it does not take much to get some factions of the Islamic world into a frenzy. That Danish political cartoon several months ago caused rioting around the world. The cartoon was drawn by someone with a far less high profile than the Pope!

One doesn't get to be Pope by being out of touch with such issues. These men are scholars and leaders, not just randomly picked guys who went to seminary school (or whatever they do to become Priests). I know he issued an apology, but it did not seem like a strong apology (I don't know if Popes EVER apologize really).

Does anyone here understand this? Is it possible that the Pope intentionally wanted to stir up the hornet's nest that is Islam in today's world?



Peace,
D.

[cucamelsmd15]

Originally Posted by Delija

I am not tuned into the politics of religion. Generally a good idea to avoid such topics in polite dinner conversation, etc. Or even on gun forums. But I'm just curious and you guys are part of my contact with the outside world, so who better to ask?

Seems to me to be a hard topic to understand and I don't even know if it's possible for people to discuss this kind of thing without bringing their personal beliefs, perspectives, and emotions into their thought processes.

But when I read that the Pope quoted something allegedly said by some Byzantine emperor (or whatever the guy's job was) six or seven or eight hundred years ago, who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, as “evil and inhuman", I was just simply shocked. It was on the front page of today's newspaper as well as on my Internet home-page (MSNBC.com).

Really....what was he thinking? Was there an upside?

Now I've read (skimmed really) that the (always particularly sensitive) Muslim Arabs in "Palestine" are burning churches (as well as effigies of the pope) in the West Bank, Gaza, wherever (I really could not bear to read the details carefully...it was just too upsetting and senseless to me).

Again, this is completely out of my realm of general interest. I had even forgotten the current Pope's name until I read it today. I was just getting used to John Paul II (seemed like a good guy to me from the little I knew). But does this mean that we are in for trouble between the Catholic Church and Islam?

As we know, it does not take much to get some factions of the Islamic world into a frenzy. That Danish political cartoon several months ago caused rioting around the world. The cartoon was drawn by someone with a far less high profile than the Pope!

One doesn't get to be Pope by being out of touch with such issues. These men are scholars and leaders, not just randomly picked guys who went to seminary school (or whatever they do to become Priests). I know he issued an apology, but it did not seem like a strong apology (I don't know if Popes EVER apologize really).

Does anyone here understand this? Is it possible that the Pope intentionally wanted to stir up the hornet's nest that is Islam in today's world?



Peace,
D.

I think, at the end of the day, the Pope was just way out of line on this one. Just my opinion though. Although, if he wanted a riot, hes sure got it...

[beardman2]

I've been trying to figure out what the big deal is. I guess I need to take the time to read his speech and get the context but... he quoted someone from the 12 or 14 hundreds (yeah I know read it first). whats the big deal? Are we not allowed to quote people from the past?

However as usual I'm sure we can expect a decent body count.

[einheit 13]

He he, How big is the 'Papal Army'???

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by einheit 13

He he, How big is the 'Papal Army'???

Believe it was Joe Stalin who asked how many divisions the Pope had.....

Regardless, here we have a super sensitive body of people, reacting to a quote by a religious leader. How many "quotes" have we heard from one Islamic religious leader after another, declaring some form of religious war (Jihad) on the West? How many western political leaders have reacted with outrage? How many street demonstrations, with a burning of the Islamic religious leader in effigy have you seen? HMMMM.......

Don't agree that the Pope needs to be involved in this type of dialogue, but what the h**l - it's his call.

[Ed 2001 SS]

People criticize Christians and Catholics all the time and nobody goes to war over it.

Anyone who dares criticize Muslims runs the risk of having some "radical" cleric declare a fatwah (Salman Rushdie, Danish cartoonists, etc).

For Muslims, the idea of free speech does not seem to include topics critical of their religion. The idea that a topic like religion is off limits is inconsistent with western notions of liberty. Judging by the large numbers of "moderates" who responded with yet more "furor," it seems to be a widely held notion that the Muslim faith is never to be criticized. Fundamental differences like that will likely seem to be irreconcilable. IMO, the real war that is going on here is a war between a western ideology that favors progress in terms of rights of humans as individuals and a Muslim ideology that states that if you are not a Muslim, and do not wish to convert to that religion, you should die. That may be painting with a broad brush, but it seems to fit the circumstances at hand.

As far as what the Pope said, he had the temerity to read a quote of another Pope who criticized Muslims in the broader context of some other lesson. Apparently that is a no-no.

[Delija]

Originally Posted by hacker15

Regardless, here we have a super sensitive body of people, reacting to a quote by a religious leader. How many "quotes" have we heard from one Islamic religious leader after another, declaring some form of religious war (Jihad) on the West? How many western political leaders have reacted with outrage? How many street demonstrations, with a burning of the Islamic religious leader in effigy have you seen? HMMMM.......

Don't agree that the Pope needs to be involved in this type of dialogue, but what the h**l - it's his call.

OK, what seems weird to me is that even though whatever the Pope had quoted from whenever.....could have been the time of the Crusades for all I know, the point seems to me to be that we've seen it takes virtually nothing to set off the Islamic world with indignation.

I had mentioned that cartoon that was published in Denmark (I think it was Denmark) that created a worldwide fuss. Obviously this isn't like telling Polish jokes. The Muslim world seems to have a problem with any kind of criticism or characterization. We know this. The whole world knows this. (Seems like the kind of knee-jerk reaction we'd expect from XDFunny if he heard something critical of president Bush. LOL).

Is their behavior over the top? Obviously it is by our standards (a big part of our problem seems to be that we expect "our standards" to apply to different cultures).

So whatever their motivation....Jihad, indignation, intolerance, feeling oppression, whatever it is that sets them off, we know it isn't much.

Should we be "walking on eggshells" all the time to appease the Muslim world? Obviously the whole world can't conform to the wishes of the radical Islamic extremists. If we do, then they will have won a big part of our current "War on terror".

But the truth is, we just don't want to make things worse. We know they'll burn Christian churches. We've seen this all before. We've seen them destroy ancient and exquisite Buddhist shrines and statues that had stood for a thousand years. Their lack of having civilized boundaries is profound.

Hopefully we (the Western world) will prevail, or at least find a way to get Islam to conform to a civilized set of values. But until then, why provoke them? There is no upside when dealing with fanaticism. And that is what we see and have been seeing out of the world of Islam for a long time...and it seems to be getting worse.

We've all heard the expression "enough to piss off the Pope". Catholics don't get offended....I doubt even the Pope would be offended. But say something similar about an Ayatollah, and heads literally roll. Why poke a hornets nest?

The Pope should have known better (it seems to me). I highly doubt that the Pope's speech was a calculated effort to piss of the Muslim world. Especially now that we are seeing strong apologies coming out of the Vatican.

So I guess I, for one, am just stuck back on the first entry in this thread....

"What was the Pope thinking?"



Pax pacis,
D.

PS: I see that while I was writing this post, "Ed 2001 SS" had made essentially the same points. So if two regular non-political, non religious leaders see how obvious this situation is, how is it possible that the Pope could have made such a simple error of judgement??

[one-eyed-fatman]

I guess you guys missed the story on the Muslim nitwits in Somalia that targeted a nun and shot her in the back and another worker and the nuns bodyguard. These so called Muslims are nothing but death freaks.

Wait... Nuns need bodyguards?

[Delija]

Originally Posted by one-eyed-fatman

I guess you guys missed the story on the Muslim nitwits in Somalia that targeted a nun and shot her in the back and another worker and the nuns bodyguard. These so called Muslims are nothing but death freaks.

Wait... Nuns need bodyguards?

Yup, the "religion of peace".

Many of us remember the Iran-Iraq war fought in the early 80s (around the same time we were backing the Taliban in Afghanistan). If they don't have some handy Western infidels to kill, they'll kill each other.

I try and keep open to the fact (fact?) that many Muslims are indeed peace loving and not at all influenced by the mad rants of those extremists they try and distance themselves from. But it's been over 5 years since 9.11 and still we haven't heard one single Muslim leader in the Arab world say anything remotely critical of the acts of Al Qaeda that day they brought death and destruction to our homeland killing almost 3000 innocent civilians...Americans as well as citizens of something like 80 different countries.

I'm tryin' real hard to be tolerant....but they don't make it easy.



D.

[Piterek]

You have to really look back at history of Islam to see where they are coming from. Read a book such as "From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine by Joan Peters". Islam is not just a religion, it's a form of government and a way of life. The statement that Islam is a religion of peace is nothing more than a smoke screen. As I said before, look back at history and you will see that from the begining, Islam's goal is one Muslim World. Mohammed's teachings and ideology is to make the whole world Muslim, even if by force. Killing innocent people is justified if it's in the name of Allah.

"There is not good Islam or bad Islam. There is just Islam. And Islam is the Qur'an. And the Qur'an is the Mein Kampf of this movement. The Qur'an demands the annihilation or subjugation of the other, and wants to substitute totalitarianism for democracy." - Oriana Fallaci.

I'm, telling you folks. America's and Europe's "Political Correctness" will lead to the downfall of the Western World. If we fought World War II the way we are trying to fight the "War on Terror" now, we would have never won and we would be all speaking German now. Or, the best scenario is that WWII would have gone on for several more years and many more lifes would have been lost.

Click on this website and see what kind of crazy things are going on that the media is not reporting.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/site/modules/news/

If this does not scare you or at least make you think, then you are as ignorant as most of America and our government.

I don't want to offent anyone here, but just consider this...Muslims don't care for our Western values and our society, you cannot negotiate with someone that is not affraid to die and just wants to kill you.