GOP Favoring the Richest Americans Again.

[Brickboy240]

Still, the left constantly beats the drum for "the rich to pay their fair share" yet was pretty damn silent on the pardon of Rich, who was in exile in Switzerland, because he cheated the govt. out of millions of owed tax dollars.

Listen, taxation in this country was originally set up to fund the govt. and fund govt. services. Now, today, it has degenerated into a wedge issue and is levied unfairly and used as a weapon against those that are more successful than others. Since passage of the Earned Income Tax Credit, the imcome tax system is also used as a reward for those that drastically underachieve.

Next to race, taxation has to be the most abused wedge issue and one that we may never get past and reform if we don't fail to see it clearly...without any emotional baggage.

The income tax system is also used by politicians and idealogues as a wedge issue (like race) to divide people or stir up anger. The right is often accused of having greed as it's main emotion, but make no mistake about it, the left's favorite emotion is envy and nothing says envy more than the "tax cuts for the wealthy" BS that is spewed forth by the left and the media. ME? I think envy is a total waste of time.

The media loves to whip up their audience in irresponsible ways by using rac, religion, class envy and their favorite...taxation.

An example, you ask? Sure. There was a great one this morning. I was watching Good Morning America while eating breakfast and one of the first stories was how the Bush tax cuts benefitted the wealthy. I still cannot believe people fall for that crap, but the constant pounding of hatred for Bush makes it easy, I guess. Nowhere did they say that the wealthy PAY most of the income taxes...just the usual constant drivel about how the rich benefitted the most from a tax cut. Well, no ****! If you PAY more...you will BENEFIT more from a cut. Why is that so hard for people to get their heads around? Or is it left out, because the media loves to whip up the class envy crowd?

NOthing gets me more riled u than the tired old saw about "tax cuts for the rich" ... you'd think by now we'd be smart enough NOT to fall for that garbage, but evidently not!

- Brickboy240

[Delija]

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

Still, the left constantly beats the drum for "the rich to pay their fair share" yet was pretty damn silent on the pardon of Rich, who was in exile in Switzerland, because he cheated the govt. out of millions of owed tax dollars.

........................

The left was silent on Rich? How many people were even aware of the guy until he got pardoned?

When he was pardoned, I know the guy who set it up. Clinton didn't have a clue as far as I know about any of what Rich did or didn't do. Clinton took this guys word when he asked for a favor. Bush (either one), Reagan, Ford, Carter or Nixon would have done the same favor if the same person asked.

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

NOthing gets me more riled u than the tired old saw about "tax cuts for the rich" ... you'd think by now we'd be smart enough NOT to fall for that garbage, but evidently not!

We're all glad for you that you are rich. Seriously....if the inheritance tax is an issue for you (and it must be..you've mentioned it countless times), that puts you in the top 1% of wealthy families. If the latest round of Bush tax cuts benefited you, that puts you in the top 1% of earners.

I'll never be affected by the inheritance tax, but I was affected by the cut in income tax. And it didn't do a thing for me. I've said this at least a dozen times before...I don't mind paying income tax - I just want my money's worth. Obvously, I'm not getting it. Also, with this administrations economic policies, my tax cut ultimately meant less than nothing. It was worse for lower income people. Our buying power...and that applies to every one of us, has decreased more than the tax cuts compensated for. This administrations economic policies are the worst since Carter brought in Volker (I'll guess 1978 or 79).

As Reagan said, "are you better off now?"

In fact, is the country better off now?

I thought the nation was badly divided during the late 60s over Viet Nam, especially after the Tet offensive in the winter of 1968. I thought it was terribly divided during Watergate. But today it's worse than ever. And this seems intentional. The Bush doctrine seems to be an intentional war of the "haves" against the "have nots".

Don't be so "riled" about things like taxes Brickboy. Be glad your on the winning side of a socio-economic war. And don't forget that while you say nothing upsets you like the talk about tax cuts for the rich, that's not quite true....illegal immigrants upset you at least as much. At least that's the message you give here.

For someone who is apparently so blessed in so many ways, you seem to dwell on the few issues that A) shouldn't matter and B) work in your favor.

Peace,
D.

[Don]

I ain't rich (and used the word "ain't" to prove it), but by far the "tax cuts for the rich" have hurt me less and in fact helped my annual income far more than the socialist "give to the poor" programs of the "left". Many of costs of the "give to the poor" have manifested themselves heavily in the urban settings, while the equivalent incomes in the rural settings seem to have less issues. Hmmmm, (non PC thoughts deleted here).

My annual income is well under 50K, and I have more fun that any single guy should legally be allowed. So where does that place me in the rich spectrum?

[CyberOtaku]

Originally Posted by Don

My annual income is well under 50K, and I have more fun that any single guy should legally be allowed. So where does that place me in the rich spectrum?

It means the government has to figure out how to start taxing fun.

[Brickboy240]

Ok, lets tak another look at this, because any way you serve it up, the inheritance tax is immoral and wrong.

If my family worked hard, did not live above their means, saved their pennies and is more successful than others...pays income taxes on their earnings (heavier taxes than the middle class or the poor, mind you) all their lives , then wants to leave their good fortunes to their offspring...they first have to give almost HALF of it to the government.

Yes, half to a body that already taxed the **** out of them for their lifetime and did nothing to help the family amass this nestegg. Hand it over, because those that were not as successful feel bad about themselves and hate you for working harder than they did and want to take the extras you and yours have amassed.

Not that they deserve it or will actually see any of it or benefit from the govt's spending of collected taxes, either. But boy, won't the envious folks feel better, knowing that half of someones life work went to the govt. and did not stay with the people that earned it. Nice.

There is no way on Gods green earth that you will ever convince me that the estate tax is honorable or just. Sorry, it doesn't hold water.

Why work hard and amass wealth, if you know good and well that the damn govt. is goign to step in later on and take half of your life's work? How will this, along with corporate taxation and other class warrior legislation, encourage any entrepreneural activity anymore in this country? Why bother anymore?

The left in this country is under the illusion that somehow, they can get rid of wealthy, independent types and still have an America as we had in the past and barely have today and I am here to tell you it cannot happen. We'd be the third world...no different than Mexico, really, without entrepreneuralship and wealth in this country. As I said before...the left's favorite emotion is envy...you can take that to the bank.

Would it make anyone here feel better, if I did not receive any inheirtance or had anything to pass on to my children or had to give half of it to the g*ddamn govt? Thats truly sad.

- Brickboy240

[Delija]

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

Ok, lets tak another look at this, because any way you serve it up, the inheritance tax is immoral and wrong.

You can say all taxes are immoral and wrong. Have another Boston Tea Party. Get worked up. See if it helps.

It's all moot. virtually nobody pays the inheritance/estate/death tax unless they choose to.

I'm not in a situation where I will have to worry about ever inheriting a single dime...but hopefully I'll have a taxable estate to leave to my family. Right now I'm selling my share of my business. I won't get a big chunk of money, but I'll get more each month (hopefully) than I can (or need to, or know how to) spend. If I invest it wisely and/or cut back on my spending, who knows? Maybe it'll turn into a lot of money. Maybe I'll become a famous movie star and make millions a picture! (the plan! )

But I know this....even though I spent the last 22 years in the investment business, I only spent the first 3 of those working as a financial accountant (stockbroker). Three years isn't a long time, but I learned fast enough how to avoid estate taxes. Knew most of it in the first few months. Most of it is very simple. Anything having to do with insurance is tax free. That would include annuities which are popular among the wealthy. Life insurance also ...just to pay taxes with is part of the cost of being rich. Tax shelters come in all sizes and colors. Loopholes like oil depletion allowances come and go virtually every day. People have estate planners for a reason. Living trusts, charitable foundations, on and on. In fact, you can earn any amount of money you want and never pay any taxes during your lifetime just by making charitable pledges today and let the foundation pay the taxes when you die. It all depends on your situation. I'm sure this will come as a shock, but not everyone is even concerned with estate taxes. Some people think leaving their heirs $4million tax free dollars is adequate. (Or whatever today's number is). Anyone who doesn't have proper estate tax planning is just foolish or doesn't care..some don't care.


The richest of the rich don't want all their money to be left to their heirs. For lot of reasons. They DO want their fortunes to go to things like medical research, etc. Also for lots of reasons.

I lost my wife very early to cancer. If I had $10 million when I died (highly unlikely) I would have no hesitation to leave my family their $4 million tax free and give the rest to cancer research. Maybe my perspective is different....to me $4 million is a lot, since I never got anything in my life I didn't work for (including a college education). Maybe I'd feel some kind of entitlement if I were born into a rich family. I'd like to think not. But obviously many do. As proved right here.

My second wife ran a charitable foundation (still does). She deals with some of the wealthiest people in America, Including Denise Rich, which is how I know about what happened with the Clinton pardon. Many of whom I got to know while we were married. I never once heard the term "estate tax" used. In fact I never heard taxes complained about or even mentioned. Not ever. These people for the most part DON'T pay it. So why should they worry about it? Or maybe I'm wrong...maybe they do pay it, or some do....after all....for someone who has amassed a billion dollar fortune, $500.000.000.00 isn't enough to leave to their heirs? The richest of the rich give away more money than they keep. It's what keeps all the charitable foundations afloat. Which is a good thing because the government has plenty of money for missiles and bombs and weapons to use against enemies that don't exist (ever think about what use a nuclear "Boomer" serves these days? And what they cost to run and maintain?), but virtually no money for medical research and as little as possible for education. Ronald Reagan single handedly took California from the very best educational system to one of the worst. Education was a waste of money to him.

If it were up to Jesus W. Bush, he'd probably just close medical schools altogether. Stem cell research? Junk science. Creationism, real science.

People who accumulate wealth are not generally foolish (although sometimes I wonder....so many support Bush who will cause a huge tax increase with this deficit). Besides, as I already mentioned, the vast majority of estates that are subjected to this tax are based on land valuations. The IRS wants their money in 90 days. How many people can liquidate land (farms, ranches, office buildings, whatever) in 90 days? The answer is none.

It amazes me that someone can think a regressive tax like the national sales tax (or whatever it's called these days) is moral when it taxes the poorest and virtually becomes no tax at all on the wealthiest.

Taxes ALL suck. But progressive taxes are at least more fair. They allow the poor to survive. Not prosper...just survive. Regressive taxes are plain criminal. Talking about "morality" and favoring regressive taxes at the same time is a joke.

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

Why work hard and amass wealth, if you know good and well that the damn govt. is goign to step in later on and take half of your life's work? How will this, along with corporate taxation and other class warrior legislation, encourage any entrepreneural activity anymore in this country? Why bother anymore?

So why not just give up? If you believed what you say, then really, why not?
You are 40 years old and you worry more about what MAY happen to your money after you die than what happens to it now?
BTW, what is "class warrior legislation"? I don't think I've ever heard that term except from you.

Peace,
D.

[Brickboy240]

A progressive sales tax would still punish the wealthy more than the poor.

How? Well, I would guess that the tax on a BMW or Mercedes would be higher than on a Chevy Cobalt...would it not? Well, then the wealthy would pay more tax than the poor. The wealthy also eat more expensive foods, wear more expensive clothing, so it would figure that they would pay higher taxes for said items than the poor.

Under a progressive sales tax, the wealthy would still pay more than the poor..it would still be progressive in a sense. Unless you're somebody with money that is a cheap bastard, like me. I rathole it away and stay away form the new Benzes and Jags like my neighbors. Who cares about keeping up with the Jonses...I don't care about outward appearances. If you ran into me at the grocery store, you'd never guess I had any more money than the average Joe and I like it that way.

Right now, the poor take up a huge portion of entitlements, yet pay not taxes at all. They don't vote or have any reason to pay attention to money or taxation, because it does not affect them. Maybe they'd become more politically aware and active if they had a stake in the game and a deduction from their paycheck. Its only "fair" and "fair" is what they crow about in the media and from the left, isn't it?

Listen, our system right now does not encourage entrepreneuralship as it did even 10 years ago and we have to change that. How else can we solve one of the other concearns of the class warriors...the widening gap between rich and poor?

Hey, I am a product of immigrant parents that are solidly in the middle of the middle class and went through a public education system in a southern state. I had a b/c average with a few A's sprinkled in here and there. I went to a state university, not an ivy league or private school. I had about an average as average bringing-up as anyone could have.

If I can make it...so can many others. You just have to want it more. You have to be willing to sacrifice more...stay later...put some of your own money into it...stick you neck out...take a risk that may give you stomach pains for the first few years. You have to have will power to save, invest and not be taken in completely by our status symbol driven society and stay focused.

Its not easy, but it IS do-able...and by average people with an average background or upbringing. I did it and I am nobody special. I am no Kenedy, Bush or Rockefeller by any stretch of the imagination. Nobody handed me this stuff free and clear.

...and you guessed it...since I worled harder than the guy next to me, I DO have a problem with having to give so much of it up to those that are not willing to work as hard and stick their necks out. Its hard for some to understand, so they write me off as greedy or uncaring towards the poor or whatever.

I don't mind helping those who cannot help themselves, this is not about that, but to be forced to subsidize those that won't get their backs into it bothers me greatly and probably always will. Its a fault of mine that I will have to learn to live with, I guess.

- Brickboy240

[Delija]

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

A progressive sales tax would still punish the wealthy more than the poor.

How? Well, I would guess that the tax on a BMW or Mercedes would be higher than on a Chevy Cobalt...would it not? Well, then the wealthy would pay more tax than the poor. The wealthy also eat more expensive foods, wear more expensive clothing, so it would figure that they would pay higher taxes for said items than the poor.

This is lifestyle choice, not an imposition of a higher tax.

Besides, not everyone considers getting what they pay for as "punishment'.

Let's agree to disagree.

Peace,
D.