Fish or Families? A thread about the government saving the environment.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

socialist stalker.

your here vocalizing emotion and your innate hatred of business, and people not living off the teet of the gubment.


By the way you old shrew, i owned you, I did argue the facts.

How am I a stalker when you're the one responding to my posts and calling me names?

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

How am I a stalker when you're the one responding to my posts and calling me names?

thats not the definition of stalking.

stalking.

Stalking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stalking is a term used to describe unwanted attention by individuals (and sometimes groups of people) to others. Stalking behaviors are related to harassment and intimidation. The word "stalking" is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offence. It may also be used to refer to criminal offences or civil wrongs that include conduct which some people consider to be stalking, such as those described in law as "harassment" or similar term

like you PM'ing me uninvited, which is not a violation of COC, but i specifically told you to NEVER PM me again, and then what do you do moments latter?

PM me. Of course!

thats stalking.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

socialist stalker.

your here vocalizing emotion and your innate hatred of business, and people not living off the teet of the gubment.

explain your logisitical fallacy.

how is this important fish almost extinct, but the waters and rivers have never been better in many many decades, maybe 100 years.

could it be that this stupid little fish means absolutely nothing and it is in no way special or more special than any of the dozens of other more healthy and populated minnow species?

its has no upside to saving it, unless you are a socialist, and darn near a communist.

By the way you old shrew, i owned you, I did argue the facts.

character attacks as you would like to label them are not attacks. Just labels as to what you are, and what you do. Not sugar coated, but that doesnt make it an attack.

is racist, biggot, war monger, neo con, etc a character attack ?

you use those words SO YOU DONT have to respond. You are so conditioned in your affirmative action, myopic socialist world you think since you cringe and see red when someone calls someone a racist, all you have to do is yell racist, and you win. Thats why you have done it so much.

failure.

you didnt respond to my well thought out response, and instead decried what you do daily. Feel good about yourself?

dont you have a socialist meeting to attend to, or some business to protest, light on fire, sue out of existence or something?

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

More character attacks from someone who can't argue issues without insulting people, and who should be banned.

insulting how?

your a proud socialist.

i argued the issue. Your wrong, your biases, YOU INSTINCTIVELY hate business. Your a hateful old shrew.

if this was the forrest drying out on its own you would be up in arms. If millions of folks were cutting down millions of trees you would be up in arms.

This is people making money off trees, fruit, nuts, bushes veggies. You hate it. You hate all business. Except fake business like carbon credits. MILLIONS OF TREES are dieing.

Do you believe in survival of the fittest ? Do you believe some animals just die out because they arent successful on their own merrit?

You didnt explain WHY this silly little minnow is special, other than it is rare.

You hurled your mud against the wall, that with out this silly little almost extinct minnow ... according to you THE COUNTRYS waters are at risk.
Could you overstate the danger any more. No you couldnt.

You LOVE the idea of all these hardworking farming families going belly up.

The way we can proove that you are anti business is this is eco related, you sided with a non impact fish, against a multi billion dollar dammage. It could not be a better case study on your socialst hateful mind. We all know if people logged millions of these trees you would be ina rage.

Denying them water so they can die and fall over is the same net result and you dont care ..... cause you hate business!

There is no defense for what you have said, and you havent even tried. You are focusing on name calling, which you do all the time. You are grandstanding and calling it character attacks.

character attacks would be saying your a tax cheat. A fugitive, a felon, a molester, a spouse beater, a child abuser.

calling you a shrew is no different than you calling folks a hawk.

get over it you old shrew.


shrew: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

1. Any of various small, chiefly insectivorous mammals of the family Soricidae, resembling a mouse but having a long pointed snout and small eyes and ears. Also called shrewmouse.
2. A woman with a violent, scolding, or nagging temperament; a scold

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

insulting how?

your a proud socialist.

i argued the issue. Your wrong, your biases, YOU INSTINCTIVELY hate business. Your a hateful old shrew.

if this was the forrest drying out on its own you would be up in arms. If millions of folks were cutting down millions of trees you would be up in arms.

This is people making money off trees, fruit, nuts, bushes veggies. You hate it. You hate all business. Except fake business like carbon credits. MILLIONS OF TREES are dieing.

Do you believe in survival of the fittest ? Do you believe some animals just die out because they arent successful on their own merrit?

You didnt explain WHY this silly little minnow is special, other than it is rare.

You hurled your mud against the wall, that with out this silly little almost extinct minnow ... according to you THE COUNTRYS waters are at risk.
Could you overstate the danger any more. No you couldnt.

You LOVE the idea of all these hardworking farming families going belly up.

The way we can proove that you are anti business is this is eco related, you sided with a non impact fish, against a multi billion dollar dammage. It could not be a better case study on your socialst hateful mind. We all know if people logged millions of these trees you would be ina rage.

Denying them water so they can die and fall over is the same net result and you dont care ..... cause you hate business!

There is no defense for what you have said, and you havent even tried. You are focusing on name calling, which you do all the time. You are grandstanding and calling it character attacks.

character attacks would be saying your a tax cheat. A fugitive, a felon, a molester, a spouse beater, a child abuser.

calling you a shrew is no different than you calling folks a hawk.

get over it you old shrew.


shrew: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

1. Any of various small, chiefly insectivorous mammals of the family Soricidae, resembling a mouse but having a long pointed snout and small eyes and ears. Also called shrewmouse.
2. A woman with a violent, scolding, or nagging temperament; a scold

Sending you a PM is hardly stalking - even if I sent two! Don't worry. Won't happen again. In fact, I think I'll just put you on Ignore and then I won't have to concern myself with your blowhard responses and generally obnoxious personality. I pity your girlfriend or wife - if you have one! See ya!

[Etta Place]

This is an excellent statement about the little Delta smelt.

Why we should save the delta smelt
The tiny fish is a bigger deal than you think. Saving it is worth a little sacrifice.
By Gordy Slack
October 21, 2007


California is a thirsty state. You don't mess with its water, even in a good year, unless you have an excellent reason. Which is why many Californians are shaking their heads in dismay over a federal judge's recent decision to cut by as much as 30% the water sent south from the San Joaquin-Sacramento River Delta this winter. The judge's reason: to save a French-fry-sized fish called the delta smelt.

The delta smelt makes no heroic journey across the ocean or up river rapids to reproduce. Once superabundant, Chinese fishermen used to harvest the fish by net, but the little thing, a weak swimmer, wouldn't put up any fight at the end of a line. And a smelt would not even make a decent snack. Frankly, on first glance, the fish just isn't much to look at either.

So why should millions of Californians who rely on water pumped south from the delta make economic and social sacrifices -- including the possibility of rationing -- for a basically unremarkable fish?

There are at least four good reasons.

First, it is the law. The Endangered Species Act prohibits the government from doing anything that jeopardizes the continued existence of endangered or threatened species, and it forbids any government agency, corporation or citizen from harming, harassing or killing endangered animals without a permit. It is a sound law, put in place by the Nixon administration in 1973 to protect imperiled plants and animals "from the consequences of economic growth and development untempered by adequate concern and conservation."

By drawing a bright legal line this side of annihilating whole kinds of creatures, the law is to thank for saving the bald eagle, the gray whale, the California condor and the Pacific green sea turtle, among other animals. And it's a law that will be especially important in California and beyond as climate change, human population growth, habitat conversion and invasive species increasingly degrade the natural world.

But obeying even a good law may seem unjustified when it comes time to make sacrifices for a ghostlike fish that conveys no clear benefits to mankind. That common perception brings us to the second reason to save the smelt: The goal of the Endangered Species Act is not just to protect single species but also the ecosystems on which they depend. The delta smelt is what Peter Moyle, a fisheries biologist at UC Davis, calls an indicator species: Its condition reflects the overall health of an ecosystem.

In the case of the delta, we're talking about a once-magnificent place that is in serious trouble. It is 16,000 square miles of wetland and open water -- the West Coast's largest estuary -- and the end point of about 40% of California's precipitation. When the Spanish arrived centuries ago, it was teeming with fish, crawling with bears and beavers, its skies periodically darkened with migrating birds.

Twenty-nine known fish species once called the delta home. Twelve of those are either gone altogether or are threatened with extinction. The Sacramento perch, once one of the most abundant fish in the system, was last seen in the 1970s, Moyle says. The thicktail chub disappeared in the 1950s. Many other fish are in rapid decline too, victims of pollution, overfishing and habitat destruction as big portions of the delta were diked and drained for agriculture, and the natural exchange of fresh and salt water was altered by the huge, sucking pumps that send water south. As for the delta smelt, Moyle has been charting its decline for decades. But that decline turned into a nose-dive a couple of years ago because of increased water diversions from the delta. This year's spring survey found 90% fewer fish than in 2006, the previous record low.

Reducing the amount of water sucked from the delta, increasing the release of fresh water upriver and controlling pollutants would help save the delta smelt and help protect spring- and winter-run Chinook, striped bass, steelhead trout, green sturgeon and the entire delta ecosystem. If we don't take these steps, and if we let the delta smelt go down, the longfin smelt, the next most endangered species in the delta, will follow. Then maybe the striped bass and the Sacramento splittail.

Why care? The species in an ecosystem are woven together like characters in a Shakespeare play. Start pulling them out, and the play's integrity is lost. Removing the delta smelt would be like pulling the ghost from "Macbeth." Forever. You'd still have a play, but it wouldn't work. Then pull, say, Banquo and the three witches and replace them with characters who don't belong there. You'd have some kind of absurdist sitcom where you once had a masterpiece. Without the native fish and other species that populate the delta, it won't work either.

A slightly closer look at the delta smelt shows us a third reason to rescue the fish from oblivion -- it's actually pretty impressive. While most fish are hard-wired either for salt or fresh water, the delta smelt tolerates both, a talent that allows it to exploit the brackish zone where the waters meet. Before there were giant aquatic vacuum cleaners in its midst to send water south, it could afford to be a weak swimmer because it mastered the cyclical ebbs and flows of the estuary, exploiting the system's inhalations and exhalations to get where it needed to go.

During the dry season, when the salt water moves up the estuary toward the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers that feed it, the smelt would ride the tidal currents up into the delta's river channels, where it laid its eggs. With the winter rains and consequent outflows, the fish would be carried out to what is called the entrapment zone, where fresh and salt water meet, a place where the zooplankton they feed on is most abundant. The delta smelt's ghostly blue color makes it nearly invisible to predators. It is a triumph of evolution and, believers might say, of creation, as well adapted to the old delta as the bald eagle and the gray whale are to their natural habitats.

Finally, the Torah says that if you save an individual, you save an entire universe. How much truer that is for a whole kind of creature. Nothing else on Earth lives the way the delta smelt does, senses the world the way it does, looks like it, moves like it, fits into an ecosystem the way it does. If we drive it from existence, we will have obliterated an entire world, willingly, in order for a while longer to grow cotton, rice and alfalfa in the desert, to keep our swimming pools topped off and open, to keep the price of water cheap.

If we can face our growing need for water, and our diminishing supply of it, without driving whole species to extinction, it might be more expensive and inconvenient in the short term. But if it saves the fish, saves the delta and saves a world, it would be well worth the price.

Gordy Slack is the author of "The Battle Over the Meaning of Everything."

Why we should save the delta smelt - Los Angeles Times

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Sending you a PM is hardly stalking - even if I sent two! Don't worry. Won't happen again. In fact, I think I'll just put you on Ignore and then I won't have to concern myself with your blowhard responses and generally obnoxious personality. I pity your girlfriend or wife - if you have one! See ya!

how else would someone stalk someone on the net.

its in the code of conduct.

me entering a thread is like entering a city park or public street. You looking at me or hollering hey brasky is not stalking.

me telling you to never PM me again is EXACTLY like telling an ex to never call or show up at my house again, telling a telemarketer to not call etc.

my PM box is PRIVATE, like my house. You basically knocked on my door, i told you to gove off my property and never contact me again, and as soon as i closed the door, you knocked again.

your off your rocker. THAT IS STALKING.

if its not define what stalking on a forum is. Mind you this is a public forum, i dont see how i can stalk you in a thread!

Again, you take this as if its directed at you cause your a female. Thats not the first time you have insinuated that you are special and should be treated with kid gloves since your a female.

why would you suggest this is a female issue? Its a socialist communist issue. Its you parroting your half truths at best, you copy and paste off your socialist blogs, you are so far gone you have convinced yourself you are a moderate independent, even a libertarian. You are a stark raving mad socialist at best, and at worst your a communist with out the spinal fortitude to make the committment to the cause. You basically a lazy communist who likes the idea, but not the effort it would take on your part.

go pound sand you dried up old bird.

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

This is an excellent statement about the little Delta smelt.
Why we should save the delta smelt
The tiny fish is a bigger deal than you think. Saving it is worth a little sacrifice.
By Gordy Slack
October 21, 2007


California is a thirsty state. You don't mess with its water, even in a good year, unless you have an excellent reason. Which is why many Californians are shaking their heads in dismay over a federal judge's recent decision to cut by as much as 30% the water sent south from the San Joaquin-Sacramento River Delta this winter. The judge's reason: to save a French-fry-sized fish called the delta smelt.

The delta smelt makes no heroic journey across the ocean or up river rapids to reproduce. Once superabundant, Chinese fishermen used to harvest the fish by net, but the little thing, a weak swimmer, wouldn't put up any fight at the end of a line. And a smelt would not even make a decent snack. Frankly, on first glance, the fish just isn't much to look at either.

So why should millions of Californians who rely on water pumped south from the delta make economic and social sacrifices -- including the possibility of rationing -- for a basically unremarkable fish?

There are at least four good reasons.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

First, it is the law. The Endangered Species Act prohibits the government from doing anything that jeopardizes the continued existence of endangered or threatened species, and it forbids any government agency, corporation or citizen from harming, harassing or killing endangered animals without a permit. It is a sound law, put in place by the Nixon administration in 1973 to protect imperiled plants and animals "from the consequences of economic growth and development untempered by adequate concern and conservation."

you dont like laws, who are you kidding, you make up excuses for obama to not follow laws daily. Legal precedent is a joke to you.

It was to protect species, not sub species.

If the lake looses all small fish thats bad. If one out of 100 small fish varieties dies, it makes no difference.

If the above quote is accurate, this judge is using law, and good intentions to serve the socialist agenda, as no "species" is being protected. All fish are not in danger. Fish in general are not in danger. Little fish are not in danger. ONE UNREMARKABLE little fish is in danger.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

By drawing a bright legal line this side of annihilating whole kinds of creatures, the law is to thank for saving the bald eagle, the gray whale, the California condor and the Pacific green sea turtle, among other animals. And it's a law that will be especially important in California and beyond as climate change, human population growth, habitat conversion and invasive species increasingly degrade the natural world.

the bald eagle was never REALLY in danger, it was rare in parts of the southern 48. I have seen pictures of alaska old old pictures when eagles were supposedley rare, and single beaches had THOUSANDS of bald eagles on them. What a crock of $hit.

condor was kinda neat. Not the only scavenger bird. Would not have mattered if they died off.

pretty much anyone could dismiss this article as hyperbole and being a blow hard writer when he said "annihilating whole kinds of creatures". You think this is a great article? then name even one creature in the last 100 years that we systematically went of the way to "annihilate" ?

Originally Posted by Etta Place

But obeying even a good law may seem unjustified when it comes time to make sacrifices for a ghostlike fish that conveys no clear benefits to mankind. That common perception brings us to the second reason to save the smelt: The goal of the Endangered Species Act is not just to protect single species but also the ecosystems on which they depend. The delta smelt is what Peter Moyle, a fisheries biologist at UC Davis, calls an indicator species: Its condition reflects the overall health of an ecosystem

peter moyle is a socialist lying bastard. I know for a fact that he would say that about anything.

if he was so damned educated he would say what is special about the smelt minnow. Its a damned minnow, there are countless varieties of minnow. Half them could go away no problem, and it wouldnt effect a damn thing cause they are all pretty much the same damn thing. The fact he wont tell you why its special is proof he is full of crap.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

In the case of the delta, we're talking about a once-magnificent place that is in serious trouble. It is 16,000 square miles of wetland and open water -- the West Coast's largest estuary -- and the end point of about 40% of California's precipitation. When the Spanish arrived centuries ago, it was teeming with fish, crawling with bears and beavers, its skies periodically darkened with migrating birds.

dried up old sqwaky birds like etta had all that killed so they could live in air conditioned apartments in the middle of desert.

I didnt do that, ETTA YOU DID THAT! You and millions of folks like you did that. Not me in michigan, not AZXD in AZ, not anyone but you and folks like you building dozens of towns with hundreds of thousands to millions of folks in a desert.

If you like nature, why are you choosing to live in a place you could not naturally live on your own??????????????/ HUH! hipocrite. You wouldnt last a week in the desert. I bet you would die in two days of dehydration and wouldnt even have the chance to die of starvation.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Twenty-nine known fish species once called the delta home. Twelve of those are either gone altogether or are threatened with extinction. The Sacramento perch, once one of the most abundant fish in the system, was last seen in the 1970s, Moyle says. The thicktail chub disappeared in the 1950s. Many other fish are in rapid decline too, victims of pollution, overfishing and habitat destruction as big portions of the delta were diked and drained for agriculture, and the natural exchange of fresh and salt water was altered by the huge, sucking pumps that send water south. As for the delta smelt, Moyle has been charting its decline for decades. But that decline turned into a nose-dive a couple of years ago because of increased water diversions from the delta. This year's spring survey found 90% fewer fish than in 2006, the previous record low.

You killed them etta. Now you want to kill farming. Killing farming wont bring back dead fish no matter how much you hate farming and industry.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Reducing the amount of water sucked from the delta, increasing the release of fresh water upriver and controlling pollutants would help save the delta smelt and help protect spring- and winter-run Chinook, striped bass, steelhead trout, green sturgeon and the entire delta ecosystem. If we don't take these steps, and if we let the delta smelt go down, the longfin smelt, the next most endangered species in the delta, will follow. Then maybe the striped bass and the Sacramento splittail.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Why care? The species in an ecosystem are woven together like characters in a Shakespeare play. Start pulling them out, and the play's integrity is lost. Removing the delta smelt would be like pulling the ghost from "Macbeth." Forever. You'd still have a play, but it wouldn't work. Then pull, say, Banquo and the three witches and replace them with characters who don't belong there. You'd have some kind of absurdist sitcom where you once had a masterpiece. Without the native fish and other species that populate the delta, it won't work either.

wrong. Nature killed of countless species by itself. Its doing it right now all over the world. Removing the smelt is like changing who plays the lead role in the producers. Changing the lead role does not change the words in the script, and the production goes on. Another minnow takes its place.

Hell introduce a better swiming minnow right now! Its call a back up.

I am convinced that with out google to search for answers to crib, you couldnt figure out how to crawl out of a actual hole you dug yourself and stepped in. You are absolutely mentally bankrupt. With out google to save you, you would surely die in said hole.

How did you ever survive pre internet, this must have been when you lived with others/ lived off them.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

A slightly closer look at the delta smelt shows us a third reason to rescue the fish from oblivion -- it's actually pretty impressive. While most fish are hard-wired either for salt or fresh water, the delta smelt tolerates both, a talent that allows it to exploit the brackish zone where the waters meet. Before there were giant aquatic vacuum cleaners in its midst to send water south, it could afford to be a weak swimmer because it mastered the cyclical ebbs and flows of the estuary, exploiting the system's inhalations and exhalations to get where it needed to go.

yawn. So do salmon, big deal. Lots of fish do this, they have a name, its called brackish water fish. TONS of fish do this the world over where the rivers poor into oceans. Fish, get this, NATURALLY adapt to both waters. Sharks swim 20 miles into fresh brackish waters .... i used to have aquarium fish that did this, puffer fish, aeros, and mollies.

Its not particularly special. This write is an ignorant turd.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

During the dry season, when the salt water moves up the estuary toward the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers that feed it, the smelt would ride the tidal currents up into the delta's river channels, where it laid its eggs. With the winter rains and consequent outflows, the fish would be carried out to what is called the entrapment zone, where fresh and salt water meet, a place where the zooplankton they feed on is most abundant. The delta smelt's ghostly blue color makes it nearly invisible to predators. It is a triumph of evolution and, believers might say, of creation, as well adapted to the old delta as the bald eagle and the gray whale are to their natural habitats.

thats fair. But not a reason to starve out 100 years of work and billions in plants and trees. If camoflauge was sooooo great, all the fish would be colored like that to avoid birds of prey.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Finally, the Torah says that if you save an individual, you save an entire universe. How much truer that is for a whole kind of creature. Nothing else on Earth lives the way the delta smelt does, senses the world the way it does, looks like it, moves like it, fits into an ecosystem the way it does. If we drive it from existence, we will have obliterated an entire world, willingly, in order for a while longer to grow cotton, rice and alfalfa in the desert, to keep our swimming pools topped off and open, to keep the price of water cheap.

if this said the bible you would summarily dismiss the whole article. Again go pound sand you old bird.

I dont think you know hardly anything about the torah but you sure sign off on this in a hurry cause it says what you want to hear. Would you like to live by hundreds of other things the torah says ? No of course not. We all know that you would be the first to ***** about it.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

If we can face our growing need for water, and our diminishing supply of it, without driving whole species to extinction, it might be more expensive and inconvenient in the short term. But if it saves the fish, saves the delta and saves a world, it would be well worth the price.

Gordy Slack is the author of "The Battle Over the Meaning of Everything."



Why we should save the delta smelt - Los Angeles Times

so put some of the fish in tanks and save them, and work on it the next 5 years, you do not need to cut off the water this year.

I assure you next year the plants will be dead, the stupid smelt will still be almost extinct, and if it dies out in ten years you will have saved nothing, but you will have squandered 100 years labor in the farming industry.

Your problem solving skills blow.

It would be nice to hear a response that is well thought out, logical, and not cribbed.

[DMWyatt]

It's kind of sad that we will spend trillions chasing the "green dream", perfected nuclear warfare, and can sustain human life in a capsule out in space... But we can't seem to find a cost effective way to desalinize water on a large enough scale to sustain our own population. California doesn't have a shortage of water, they sit right next to the largest body of water on earth. They just don't seem to want to put the money and time into removing the salt from it. Maybe I'm completely oversimplifying it, but you have to admit the irony of it all...

[photogbill]

For billbrasky ...but I hope you didn't completely scare Etta away with your hard-hitting analysis of the mindset of liberals like her.

I like the idea of having one or two of them around ...just as a reminder of how utterly baseless, sophomoric, foolhardy, pretentious, illogical, and just plain old 'lacking in common sense' ....the precepts and beliefs of the far left, truly are!