Section 304 - Labeling: Dissecting Cap & Trade's Effect on Home Owners - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums

**jmichna** · 07-08-2009, 11:56 PM

Brickboy240 · 07-09-2009, 11:59 AM

Don't worry...the price increas is coming if this passes and is enacted.

Who are you going to believe? Obama an his syndicate that have no expereince in the energy sector or the predictions o those working at ground zero for oil refining in the USA? Your call....but I also predicted last summer's price ramp-up.

The inner workings of this bill will limit the amount of emisions an oil reinery or drilling platform will be "allowed" to emit in a calandar year. This means that the few refineries we have in the USA (that are already stertched to their limits) will have to be shut down for a number of months.

Shutting down and starting up an oil refinery is VERY expensive and time consuming. This extra cost will be passed on to the consumer.

Toss in the fact that during the shutdown, we will have to import oil from foreign sources (possibly at higher rates) or deal with shortages. Both of those scenarios will easily drive up gas prices at the pump. Shortages cold also bring back 1970s styled gas lines if a foreign source is not lined up.

Higher gas prices WILL happen....don't kid yourselves! Most people I knw in the refinery biz (who have workd there for decades) say 6-8 bucks a gallon...some say higher. They're very serious about this, too.

I believe them long before I believe Obama or big media. Big media fails to report this, because they too do not understand (and dislike) the oil refining business and I woudl not be surprised if they (like Obama) secretly cheer on the demise of the oil business.

This would not be a big deal if we DID have an alternative that was ready to go but we do not. The Obama syndicate thinks that if they hamstring big oil now....the alternative will spring forth because of this. Well...thats a huge gamble if you ask me!

- brickboy240

**Powerman** · 07-09-2009, 12:13 PM

I think you are going a little overboard there Brick. The idea of the Tick is to live off it's host, not kill it. The governemnt wants taxes, not zero tax base.

Refineries do not have to shut down, they simply have to pay the government for credits. Tax. As the cap is lowered, they have to buy more credits. Those credits will have to be passed on to the consumer, and we will pay for it. Price will go up, but I disagree it will be because refineries will shut down.

Foreign oil can't be exemt from this either. The Feds are not that stupid. They want their cut.

There is a problem though from the oil buisness as you point out. There is no alternative. The only ones on the table right now are still carbon based and they still produce CO2. Oh ya, they are carbon nuetral because they are renewable... subsidies to you. The only viable alternative right now is electricity. We have enough exsess generation at night, but we still have to supply it. That will undoubledly come from carbon sources of which we get 75% of our electricity from. So we can switch to electric cars, but we will still be paying the carbon tax. Of course the long term answer would be to move away from carbon based electricity, but that is way in the future.

Bottom line is this is nothing but a tax. Period. A brand new revenue stream. One that can be "shell gamed" 100 ways till Sunday. We will pay and the Government will rake it in. Of course... they will hand out some credits to poor and subsidize thier buddies, but they will most definitely get their cut.

Palmguy · 07-09-2009, 12:35 PM

Oh they will pay, alright. Refineries are allocated 2% of the allowances. They will pay, and we will pay. The government often doesn't have a grasp on the two little words unintended consequences.

**ForTehNguyen** · 07-09-2009, 02:09 PM

Deine Grun Papieren, bitte

Brickboy240 · 07-09-2009, 06:20 PM

Yes, the refineries do not have to shut down but any expenses incurred in paying for these "credits" will be (surprise) passed along to the end consumer. Due to the expense and complexity of shutting down and starting up a refinery...yes...buying more "credits" will probably be the way they go.

However, we do not know the details and I'll bet the permits/credits will be outrageously expensive.

One thing is for certain: if this passes, the cost of running the oil business in the USA will be going up, sharply.

Govt thinks they can single out big oil and just punish the industry, but they will end up hurting regular consumers in the end.

True, the unintended consequences of cap and trade will be alarming and very harmful to the back pockets of regular Americans.

- brickboy240

07-08-2009, 11:56 PM	#11
jmichna XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Western UP, near the Porkies Posts: 5,870	__________________ Fight Organized Crime... next election, elect no one. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ "It was often pointed out during the election that Obama lacked management experience. While having a president with no experience is bad, it's not nearly as bad as having a president with experience as a community organizer." ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." - James Madison, Federalist No. 10
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07-09-2009, 11:59 AM	#12
Brickboy240 XDTalk 10K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 14,265	Don't worry...the price increas is coming if this passes and is enacted. Who are you going to believe? Obama an his syndicate that have no expereince in the energy sector or the predictions o those working at ground zero for oil refining in the USA? Your call....but I also predicted last summer's price ramp-up. The inner workings of this bill will limit the amount of emisions an oil reinery or drilling platform will be "allowed" to emit in a calandar year. This means that the few refineries we have in the USA (that are already stertched to their limits) will have to be shut down for a number of months. Shutting down and starting up an oil refinery is VERY expensive and time consuming. This extra cost will be passed on to the consumer. Toss in the fact that during the shutdown, we will have to import oil from foreign sources (possibly at higher rates) or deal with shortages. Both of those scenarios will easily drive up gas prices at the pump. Shortages cold also bring back 1970s styled gas lines if a foreign source is not lined up. Higher gas prices WILL happen....don't kid yourselves! Most people I knw in the refinery biz (who have workd there for decades) say 6-8 bucks a gallon...some say higher. They're very serious about this, too. I believe them long before I believe Obama or big media. Big media fails to report this, because they too do not understand (and dislike) the oil refining business and I woudl not be surprised if they (like Obama) secretly cheer on the demise of the oil business. This would not be a big deal if we DID have an alternative that was ready to go but we do not. The Obama syndicate thinks that if they hamstring big oil now....the alternative will spring forth because of this. Well...thats a huge gamble if you ask me! - brickboy240 __________________ We've gone from Neo-Cons to Neo-Coms. Neither are desirable, if you ask me. Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado Volvo...the Swedish Brick!
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07-09-2009, 12:13 PM	#13
Powerman XDTalk 4K Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,604	I think you are going a little overboard there Brick. The idea of the Tick is to live off it's host, not kill it. The governemnt wants taxes, not zero tax base. Refineries do not have to shut down, they simply have to pay the government for credits. Tax. As the cap is lowered, they have to buy more credits. Those credits will have to be passed on to the consumer, and we will pay for it. Price will go up, but I disagree it will be because refineries will shut down. Foreign oil can't be exemt from this either. The Feds are not that stupid. They want their cut. There is a problem though from the oil buisness as you point out. There is no alternative. The only ones on the table right now are still carbon based and they still produce CO2. Oh ya, they are carbon nuetral because they are renewable... subsidies to you. The only viable alternative right now is electricity. We have enough exsess generation at night, but we still have to supply it. That will undoubledly come from carbon sources of which we get 75% of our electricity from. So we can switch to electric cars, but we will still be paying the carbon tax. Of course the long term answer would be to move away from carbon based electricity, but that is way in the future. Bottom line is this is nothing but a tax. Period. A brand new revenue stream. One that can be "shell gamed" 100 ways till Sunday. We will pay and the Government will rake it in. Of course... they will hand out some credits to poor and subsidize thier buddies, but they will most definitely get their cut. __________________ XD-45 service Springer Trigger job TFOs Coal... Powering China's economic engine. Liberals now see it as a way to destroy ours.
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07-09-2009, 12:35 PM	#14
Palmguy XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 3,189	Oh they will pay, alright. Refineries are allocated 2% of the allowances. They will pay, and we will pay. The government often doesn't have a grasp on the two little words unintended consequences. __________________
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07-09-2009, 02:09 PM	#15
ForTehNguyen XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,857	Deine Grun Papieren, bitte __________________ XD9 Service Black, XD9 Subcompact x 2 Kimber Tactical Custom II, Walther P22 AR15 16" Midlength, Carbine Tacticooled, 20" A2 Style Lancaster AK47, Hungarian AMD65, Yugo & Chinese SKS Remington 870 12ga Express Taxed Enough Already
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07-09-2009, 06:20 PM	#16
Brickboy240 XDTalk 10K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 14,265	Yes, the refineries do not have to shut down but any expenses incurred in paying for these "credits" will be (surprise) passed along to the end consumer. Due to the expense and complexity of shutting down and starting up a refinery...yes...buying more "credits" will probably be the way they go. However, we do not know the details and I'll bet the permits/credits will be outrageously expensive. One thing is for certain: if this passes, the cost of running the oil business in the USA will be going up, sharply. Govt thinks they can single out big oil and just punish the industry, but they will end up hurting regular consumers in the end. True, the unintended consequences of cap and trade will be alarming and very harmful to the back pockets of regular Americans. - brickboy240 __________________ We've gone from Neo-Cons to Neo-Coms. Neither are desirable, if you ask me. Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado Volvo...the Swedish Brick!
	Share

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