FiveSeven goes Boom! Possible design flaw.

[yocan]

I had always viewed thee 5.7 as the ultimate weapon for a small framed person. LIke say under 120 lbs. Not anymore, someone that size could loose their hand due to injuries. I had wanted a 5.7 but only the IOM not the civvy model. Maybe thats why its not the civvy model?

[Oldnoob]

that really suck, hope his hand recover soon. last time i was talking to a range officer about caliber they sell. i was wondering how come they don't rent glock with 357sig or sell that caliber. it turn out few years back they have glock 31 for rent but once he was using it to teach a class, it KB on him. he said his hand was out for a month and never work the same as before. i forget to ask him how did glock deal with kb. but i see he still carry a glock, so can't be as bad as FN.

[f3rr37]

Another update for today:

I picked up my package today, which ended up not being a package at all, but a UPS Express Envelope. Included were two letters from FN, one from Rick DeMilt (Senior VP of Sales and Marketing) and the other from Tommy Thacker (Product Manager).

The first letter reads:

Originally Posted by Rick DeMilt

Mr. [Fuzzy],

In an effort of best customer service relations, FNH USA, LLC. will replace your pistol at no charge and the replacement will be sent directly to you. This is a unique situation and not a precedent for the future.

Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owner's manual please contact our customer service department at 703-228-1292.

Regards,



Rick DeMilt
Senior VP of Sales and Marketing
FNH USA, LLC

The second letter, note the bold red header is actually on the letter.

Originally Posted by Tommy Thacker

Warning

DANGER CAUSED BY RELOADED AMMUNITION!

Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425

Date: 6-9-2008

The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.

Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire "out of battery" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.

Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.

Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.

The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.

The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an "out of battery" firing.

Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.

It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an "out of battery" firing.



Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.




Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.

So from FNH's findings, the cause was excessive pressure caused by a double charge (~10grains of TrueBlue powder). Like everything both mechanical and human, there was an error. In all honestly I'm still not quite convinced that I double charged the load, but from their findings of excessive pressure that they were able to duplicate in almost the exact same manner, it is probably the result of a double charge.

I accept the findings of FNH's investigation and testing of the incident that happened to me on April 12, 2008. I accept full responsibility for the accident and hope that others can learn from my mistakes.

I also want to make clear that in my original post, my statements were based off of my observations and firearm at hand. [I kept the Five-seveN in the original condition it was in when the failure happened to preserve anything that might help in FNH's investigation and the only thing I did was handle it, I never tampered with(or cleaned) any part of the gun.] My original post was based on the lack of customer support I had received from FNH after my accident. I never asked FNH to replace my firearm for free, I merely asked if they would like to take the gun in for inspection.


I want to thank everyone here on the forum for their support and encouragement, also specifically Medula Oblongata, for the time he spent to help me figure this out, and Tommy Thacker who stepped up to the plate as FNH's Product Manager to take care of a situation that rocketed out of control.

Thanks everyone,
-f3rr37

*Also, I received the new Five-seveN USG on wednesday. If you have questions/concerns please post them here: FN FiveseveN Warning *Picture Heavy* part1 - FN FiveseveN Forum

[chupacabrachus]

Originally Posted by f3rr37

...I'm...not...convinced that I double charged the load, but...it is probably the result of a double charge.

Okay.

[AZXD]

Welcome to the forums f3rr37.
I realize you couldn't say so, if you were, but it sure sounds from your post that FNH told you they would sue you if you did not make this statement.

I could see it over at FN FiveseveN Forum but it does seem a little strange that you would create an account here just to give the XDTALK group an update.

I hope I'm wrong, and I'm glad you got another gun ... But most of all glad the injuries were not more serious.

[Maddcat1]

Welcome and glad youre ok. I have the 5 7 also and about 800 rds through it. I only use factory ammo

[nsnate02]

Reloading this round is just not a good idea. Much like reloading the .40 in the early days was not a good idea. All those Glocks blowing up had the same problem as the 5.7. There just isn't enough data for load levels and evidently just a little much is too much. This won't be fixed by FN, especially since they (like most) don't cover reloaded ammunition problems for this very reason. i for one, wouldn't blame the gun.

[boricua9mm]

I am glad f3rr37 is on a road to recovery. On the other hand, I think that a lot of damage has already been done to FNH because the shooter double charged a round for which there is NO load data.

The original post on the 5.7 forum still reads as a negative post, even after FN stepped up to the plate to go above and beyond for the mistake of the shooter. Allegations were made against FNH, and this stuff floated all around the internet because the shooter was pissed. Not to be an ass, but the whole thing smelled like a reload gone bad from the very beginning. Now, FN steps up to help this guy out, but where is the damage control from the ACCUSER?? Do we see posts reverberating throughout the web praising FNH for their courtesy in this matter? I'm not seeing it. People aren't going to read through multiple pages of a thread to find out the end of the story. They'll continue to read about the failure and make farse judgements about FN's product.

I'm not sure that this can EVER be reconciled, and FN will continue to get bad press from this. The shooter blew his cool from the get-go, blamed the manufacturer, bashed them online, but never once looked inward on himself to take some of the blame for this catastrophic event. I think the internet was misused in this case, and FN is paying the price. Nice one...

[rickett]

Originally Posted by boricua9mm

I am glad f3rr37 is on a road to recovery. On the other hand, I think that a lot of damage has already been done to FNH because the shooter double charged a round for which there is NO load data.

The original post on the 5.7 forum still reads as a negative post, even after FN stepped up to the plate to go above and beyond for the mistake of the shooter. Allegations were made against FNH, and this stuff floated all around the internet because the shooter was pissed. Not to be an ass, but the whole thing smelled like a reload gone bad from the very beginning. Now, FN steps up to help this guy out, but where is the damage control from the ACCUSER?? Do we see posts reverberating throughout the web praising FNH for their courtesy in this matter? I'm not seeing it. People aren't going to read through multiple pages of a thread to find out the end of the story. They'll continue to read about the failure and make farse judgements about FN's product.

I'm not sure that this can EVER be reconciled, and FN will continue to get bad press from this. The shooter blew his cool from the get-go, blamed the manufacturer, bashed them online, but never once looked inward on himself to take some of the blame for this catastrophic event. I think the internet was misused in this case, and FN is paying the price. Nice one...

Originally Posted by f3rr37

So from FNH's findings, the cause was excessive pressure caused by a double charge (~10grains of TrueBlue powder). Like everything both mechanical and human, there was an error. In all honestly I'm still not quite convinced that I double charged the load, but from their findings of excessive pressure that they were able to duplicate in almost the exact same manner, it is probably the result of a double charge.

I accept the findings of FNH's investigation and testing of the incident that happened to me on April 12, 2008. I accept full responsibility for the accident and hope that others can learn from my mistakes.

-f3rr37

Well, he kind of did.

[Shruggerxd]

Thank god I think the FN5.7 is ugly as sin and won't be purchasing one.