In Praise of the 10mm

[FATSEXY]

Originally Posted by Cannibul

I would disagree with the OP on one point. Jeff Cooper is a big name. But John Moses Browning is the most important person in the history of Firearms in the US and perhaps the world.

The 1911. Almost 100 years old and still going.
The M2. Designed in 1921 and still kicking.
The Auto-5 shotgun. In production for 98 years and used models are still highly sought after.
Browning High Power.
.25 ACP
.32 ACP
.38 ACP
.380 ACP
.45 ACP
.50 BMG

This is what I wrote, I'm going to repost it because I think you misunderstood it:

Jeff Cooper, probably the most important figure in the history of handgun fighting

I would not argue for a second that Browning is the most important guy in the history of small arms. But Cooper is the most important man in the history of handgun fighting.

[Northalius]

I AGREE with the OP 100%! I don't care how long .45 ACP has been made and used in America, the 10mm is much more versatile than the .45 ACP!


With the 10mm, you can have loads as light as 135 gr flying in at 1608 fps (and that's not even the fastest...), to 230 gr. rounds going 1200+ fps.

A G20 with a 6" barrel shooting DoubleTap 200 gr. FMJ can literally rival one of the 210 gr. .41 Magnum rounds in power! We're talking 200 grains flying in at 1400+ fps, and 860+ ft. lbs. energy. The DoubleTap 200 gr. Beartooth even faster than that!

I've read one guy loaded his own 10mm, and they were flying in at 1830 fps tops, with an average of 1800 to 1810 fps. I'm assuming he was loading 135 gr.

I've labeled the 10mm: .40 Magnum Auto

The 10mm is much more versatile than the .45 ACP.

As I always bring up: Ted Nugent goes hunting with his 10mm Glock 20, not a .45 ACP Glock 21.

Rumors are that GLOCK is making the Glock 20 and Glock 29 SF models next year... for those that want a smaller grip (from front to back). I'm definitely looking into a 10mm Glock 29 for CCW! I live in the woods, so it'll also be used as a bear defense pistol while I am working. I just started helping to build houses with my friend, and they're located near the woods, so a bear comes out, he's going down; a two-legged BG comes at me, he's going down too.

G29 - the ultimate multi-tasker CCW pistol!

P.S. anyone want to shoot 9x25 Dillon, what I call: ".35 Magnum Auto" ; which is simply a necked down 10mm, using a 9mm bullet; basically what they did with the .357 SIG, only the Dillon is 25mm long.

You can get a conversion barrel for 9x25 Dillon for your Glock 20, and buy the ammunition from DoubleTap. We're talking rounds that fly in at over 2000 fps out of your pistol... Talk about leaving the .357 Magnum in the dust.

[mcb]

The 10mm is versatile in that "jack of all trades and master of none" sort of way.

Its too much gun for most people to use for CCW/self defense. Its even too much gun for many LEO and similar. Hence the reason the 40S&W is so popular. Yet its not enough gun for serious hunting. The 357 magnum can out perform it with hunting loads not to mention the 41 Remington Mag and 44 Remington Mag.

The cartridge is a fine cartridge but unfortunately its never found a useful home. Sure the 10mm can do a lot of difference things but any one of these things can be done better with other cartridges.

The anti 10mm fanboy
mcb

[Northalius]

Originally Posted by mcb

The 10mm is versatile in that "jack of all trades and master of none" sort of way.

Its too much gun for most people to use for CCW/self defense. Its even too much gun for many LEO and similar. Hence the reason the 40S&W is so popular. Yet its not enough gun for serious hunting. The 357 magnum can out perform it with hunting loads not to mention the 41 Remington Mag and 44 Remington Mag.

The cartridge is a fine cartridge but unfortunately its never found a useful home. Sure the 10mm can do a lot of difference things but any one of these things can be done better with other cartridges.

The anti 10mm fanboy
mcb

^ The ill-informed anti-10mm fanboy. ^

Fixed.

Check out DoubleTap ballistics tests, and then compare the 10mm with the .357 Magnum. The 10mm is superior to the .357 Magnum; so, your comment about that is laughable.

One example:

DoubleTap 200 grain .357 Magnum Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast round:

Out of a 6" barrel: 1315 fps

osCommerce

DoubleTap 200 grain 10mm WFNGC round:

Out of a stock Glock 20 4.6" barrel: 1300 (750 ft. lbs. energy).

osCommerce


Now, if the 10mm can hit 1300 fps (and 750 ft. lbs. energy) out of but a much shorter barrel, that is to say 1.4" shorter... then how fast do you think that same 10mm 200 gr. Beartooth bullet will fly out of a 6" barrel? Yep... 1400 to 1430+ fps, and roughly 860 to 890 ft. lbs. energy. That is literally in .41 Magnum territory! At least in the .41 Mags' 210 grain bullet.

So, you saying the 10mm is jack of all trades, master of none, is quite laughable.

It is, actually, for semi autos: A jack of all trades AND master of ALL. That is just the plain, hard, honest truth. Because if you want less recoil, use a weaker 10mm round; they download 10mm rounds today; then they have medium loaded 10mm rounds on the market, like Georgia-Arms.com 10mm canned heat. Then you have the "hot" 10mm manufacturer, which is DoubleTap. And then, if you're really feeling frisky, you can load your own 10mm to fly in at 1820+ fps with certain loads.

Only downside for most that talk about wanting it, but just choose not to: Price of ammo if they're going to practice a lot, and the availability of 10mm ammo in their area.

Well, the internet is great, and you can order 100 rounds of 10mm from Georgia Arms for $30. That's $15 for every 50 rounds, which is not too bad. Or you can order from them the 500 round "Canned Heat" 10mm, which costs roughly $147; that'd be $14.70 for every 50 rounds, if you don't mind ordering in bulk. Even cheaper if you order per 1000 rounds, I believe.

Then, again, don't forget DoubleTap: Doubletapammo Shop

Check some of these 10mm DoubleTap ballistic gel test results out:

Grain weight / speed / distance traveled / expansion size

135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty

165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"

180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"

180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

This from a 4.6" Glock 20 barrel. Remember, you can throw a 6" barrel in and get much more serious results, if you want. Especially for hunting.

If the 10mm wasn't good for hunting, Ted Nugent wouldn't use it; plain and simple.

Not saying I know everything about every caliber and whatnot, but try to at least do some homework before you judge next time?

[FATSEXY]

Well, in the interest of fairness, the super hot 10mm rounds can approach factory loads for the .41 Magnum, but high end handloads for the .41 Magnum are significantly stronger than 10mm.

But, the 10mm is pretty swank.

[mcb]

Originally Posted by Northalius

^ The ill-informed anti-10mm fanboy. ^

Fixed.

Check out DoubleTap ballistics tests, and then compare the 10mm with the .357 Magnum. The 10mm is superior to the .357 Magnum; so, your comment about that is laughable.

{snip}

Not saying I know everything about every caliber and whatnot, but try to at least do some homework before you judge next time?

Actually I have done my homework. As you have pointed out the 10mm Auto tops out about 700-750ft-lbs of muzzle energy using hot loads from these specialty manufactures. The 357 Magnum can be loaded to over 800ft-lbs with any bullet in its weight range. With the lighter bullets the 357mag will exceed 1000ft-lbs. Just look at any of the reloading data on the powder manufacturer's websites for the data. These loads are safe and under SAAMI spec for the cartridge. Similarly the 41 and 44 Rem Mag can both exceed 1200ft-lbs fairly easily with much heavier bullets than the 10mm can push.

The biggest proof the 10mm Auto is not the master of all trades it the fact that its already small market share is slipping away. More manufacture drop the 10mm from their lineup than add it each year. If it was truly as great a cartridge as all the 10mm Auto fanboys claim, it would have a greater market share. It is certainly a capable cartridge but it unfortunately has never manage to find a home because its always gets beat when it comes down to picking a gun for a specific task or mission.

In this day and age very few people need a handgun that can do it all. Why comprise on performance with the 10mm when you can get multiply guns. I have a carry gun that is smaller lighter easier to shoot than any 10mm and just as effective in self defense situation. I have a competition gun that fits my hand better and is cheaper to shoot than 10mm. I have a handgun I hunt with that is more accurate and delivers more energy on target than a 10mm. So if I already own several handguns why buy a 10mm it will likely not out perform any of my mission specific handgun in the missions they were bought for.

The anti 10mm fanboy
mcb

[Northalius]

Originally Posted by mcb

Actually I have done my homework. As you have pointed out the 10mm Auto tops out about 700-750ft-lbs of muzzle energy using hot loads from these specialty manufactures. The 357 Magnum can be loaded to over 800ft-lbs with any bullet in its weight range. With the lighter bullets the 357mag will exceed 1000ft-lbs. Just look at any of the reloading data on the powder manufacturer's websites for the data. These loads are safe and under SAAMI spec for the cartridge. Similarly the 41 and 44 Rem Mag can both exceed 1200ft-lbs fairly easily with much heavier bullets than the 10mm can push.

The biggest proof the 10mm Auto is not the master of all trades it the fact that its already small market share is slipping away. More manufacture drop the 10mm from their lineup than add it each year. If it was truly as great a cartridge as all the 10mm Auto fanboys claim, it would have a greater market share. It is certainly a capable cartridge but it unfortunately has never manage to find a home because its always gets beat when it comes down to picking a gun for a specific task or mission.

In this day and age very few people need a handgun that can do it all. Why comprise on performance with the 10mm when you can get multiply guns. I have a carry gun that is smaller lighter easier to shoot than any 10mm and just as effective in self defense situation. I have a competition gun that fits my hand better and is cheaper to shoot than 10mm. I have a handgun I hunt with that is more accurate and delivers more energy on target than a 10mm. So if I already own several handguns why buy a 10mm it will likely not out perform any of my mission specific handgun in the missions they were bought for.

The anti 10mm fanboy
mcb

The 10mm doesn't top out at 750 ft. lbs. That's what DoubleTap loaded their 200 gr. Beartooth to do; their 135 gr. has 767 ft. lbs. And DoubleTap is not loading the 10mm nearly to its limit. They're loading them to a certain limit, as within SAAMI specs.

BTW: The 750 ft. lbs. from 200 gr. is out of a 4.6" barrel; remember, the longer the barrel, the more velocity and ft. lbs. you're going to get; so I'm not shocked you said the .357 can reach such numbers, since you're probably talking about it being fired out of a 6 1/2" barrel and being reloaded to its highest.

If you reload a 10mm, and throw a 6" (or 8", if they make 'em... I heard LWD might do it, if they get enough peoples' request) then you're looking at much more velocity and ft. lbs. energy.

A guy using 200 gr. FMJ from DoubleTap (which is weaker than the 200 gr. Beartooth) got roughly 1400 fps, and 860 ft. lbs. energy out of his 6" barrel. Imagine if he reloaded it much hotter? It would be rivaling close to (or more than) 1000 ft. lbs.

I read someone loaded their 10mm to fly in at 1830 fps tops already, which is probably getting close 950ish ft. lbs.

And the 10mm (for me, in the G29) is perfect: 11 rounds of .40 Magnum Auto power in a compact / sub compact size, with much lower recoil than your average snubnose .357 Magnum revolver, and more power per inch of barrel, too. That's why I'm using it: I live in the woods, and work in and near the woods; bears are around here! But when I have to go into the city and town, I am still carrying the pistol of my choice. How you can say the other calibers are just as effective in a self defense situation against a human criminal, is beyond me. So I guess the other weaker calibers are just as good at killing a bear in the woods with, as compared to the 10mm? I don't think so. If they're not equal at [black] bear killing, then they're certainly not as good at taking down two-legged criminals, either.

[yocan]

There is a place where a jack of all trades weapon is needed. WAR.

The problem with the 10mm is overpenetration, but in war who cares. Give me a Mark 23 variant in 10mm and give it to my brothers in Iraq, we'd appreciate it. Also SMGs in 10mm would be appreciated too (mp5s and UZIs have had it happen) To have SMGs for CQC and handguns with interchangeable ammunition would be awesome.

In truth though, an open-bolt 9mm is a good firearm, but 9mm closed bolt is insufficient.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by mcb

The 10mm is versatile in that "jack of all trades and master of none" sort of way.

Its too much gun for most people to use for CCW/self defense. Its even too much gun for many LEO and similar. Hence the reason the 40S&W is so popular. Yet its not enough gun for serious hunting. The 357 magnum can out perform it with hunting loads not to mention the 41 Remington Mag and 44 Remington Mag.

The cartridge is a fine cartridge but unfortunately its never found a useful home. Sure the 10mm can do a lot of difference things but any one of these things can be done better with other cartridges.

The anti 10mm fanboy
mcb

One point you continually seem to miss with your rants against the 10mm round, is that there is a big difference between a relatively light gun loaded with 16 or 17 high powered 10mm rounds (G20, or XD10 if they made it), and a heavy-clunky revolver that holds 6 41 mag rounds. This really isn't that hard to understand, but you continually want to skip over it...

I'll take 17 rounds of high powered 10mm rounds (with another 16 a couple seconds away from reloading), vs. a 41 mag revolver or 44 mag revolver for that matter any day...

[Northalius]

Originally Posted by yocan

There is a place where a jack of all trades weapon is needed. WAR.

The problem with the 10mm is overpenetration, but in war who cares. Give me a Mark 23 variant in 10mm and give it to my brothers in Iraq, we'd appreciate it. Also SMGs in 10mm would be appreciated too (mp5s and UZIs have had it happen) To have SMGs for CQC and handguns with interchangeable ammunition would be awesome.

In truth though, an open-bolt 9mm is a good firearm, but 9mm closed bolt is insufficient.

"Overpenetration" is why they made JHP bullets!

And higher velocities [from the 10mm] are actually 'the friend' of more reliable expansion! The DoubleTap 165 gr. 10mm round expanded to over an inch in their ballistics gel tests! Their 180 gr. expanded to .96" ! You'd be lucky to have a 9mm or .40 to expand to even .75"

Worry about missing waaaaaay before you worry about overpenetration.

And I agree with your statement about soldiers using the 10mm in combat; it's what I said in another thread when someone brought up the "best combat handgun" and I said Glock 20: 16 rounds (15 magazine, 1 chamber) of 10mm is great to have in battle; if you need high penetration of barriers, use DoubleTap FMJ rounds. One guy put one of them through a dense telephone poll with his Glock 20 (this is shown in the comments section of the DoubleTap website, the 200 gr. FMJ-FP comments).

Each round of 10mm has more power to more effectively put someone down, as compared to any .45 ACP, 9mm, .40 or even .357SIG.

-

MisterB, and the nice thing about a Glock 29 (Sub Compact) is: You can put the 15-round Glock 20 magazines in it, and with an aftermarket magazine sleeve to fit, as well. Thus you have high capacity backup in a very concealable package.

-

If anyone read GlockTalk forums, many people are continually buying more and more 10mm Glocks (20 and 29). The 10mm market has actually grown more within the last 10 years, not dropped down from what it used to be. They're seeing they can either: cheaply reload for 'em, or buy the 10mm rounds online: Georgia-Arms.com canned heat for cheaper practice, and DoubleTap for defense. DT is but $30ish per 50 rounds of JHP and/or FMJ (hunting / woods protection), which is still better than the "premium" ammo I see for $20 per 20 rounds! Georgia-Arms.com is roughly $15 per 50 rounds. You can buy 100 pack of 10mm FMJ for $30.