Still struggling with thumbs-forward

[EeeAhhrrr]

I've posted about this over at GlockTalk and MP-Pistol but I'm still struggling...

I definitely see the advantage of the thumbs-forward grip when shooting. The locked wrist throws the front sight back onto the target quickly and I don't have to offer much correction. It allows a neutral grip all the way around the gun so that indexing a target and keeping the gun on that target are natural. These are fantastic benefits. But, despite an 8 hour training class, 800 rounds after that, and almost nightly dry-fire (for about 6 months - no kidding), I still can't make the thumbs-forward grip feel consistently natural in my hands. I'm using this grip on both my G19 and my M&P9. I have grip-tape on both guns since I find them too slick otherwise.

The grip just isn't consistent. When my hands are warmed up and I'm dry-firing, I can make the grip really lock into place -- especially on my M&P9, which fits my hands better. But if I wake up and immediately grab a gun -- as if I was going to shoot someone in the house -- I find that I can't seem to really lock down on the gun. So, the grip just doesn't always feel the same to me. If I add sweat, water, or anything else slick to my hands, the grip deteriorates quickly. The bottom line is that I almost have to warm up in order to really feel secure with the grip and I won't have that opportunity in real life.

Thumbs locked down by contrast always provides a stable platform, whether my hands are warm, cold, wet, or sticky. It does so because I can push-pull the gun into my hands and I can really muscle down if I have to. Since I'm shooting 9mm, I find that the muzzle flip isn't that much greater than it is when using thumbs-forward, but the front sight doesn't naturally settle back down onto the target. Also, I have to take more of a forward, boxer's stance with my shooting arm slightly straighter than my support arm in order to keep my grip strictly front-to-back with no pull to either side. This stance is very natural to me though. The bottom line with this grip is that a Hogue on my G19 fits my hands perfectly and I can always lock this grip into place - it's just not as shooting-effective as thumbs-forward.

My questions then are this:

1. Anyone else go through this?
2. How do thumbs-forward shooters account for Airweight revolvers (I plan on getting one for pocket carry)? Is it smart to have one grip for revolvers and another for autos?
3. Anyone use thumbs-forward in FoF or other, non-competition venues? How does it hold up in many of the awkward positions in which a defensive shooter might find himself?
4. How do thumbs-forward shooters account for slick hands in non-competition environments?

FYI - I've probably surfed every thumbs-forward thread on this site. I see the good advice and have tried to apply it to my guns but am still in limbo. Thanks btw to SpringerPrecision for taking the time to answer my questions over the phone.

[JJ.45]

Originally Posted by EeeAhhrrr

If I add sweat, water, or anything else slick to my hands, the grip deteriorates quickly.

This should not make a difference. I have a feeling that you are doing it wrong. Can you take a picture? Your weak hand thumb should be on the
gun, and NOT overlapping your strong thumb.

[Bycyclist]

2. How do thumbs-forward shooters account for Airweight revolvers (I plan on getting one for pocket carry)? Is it smart to have one grip for revolvers and another for autos?
3. Anyone use thumbs-forward in FoF or other, non-competition venues? How does it hold up in many of the awkward positions in which a defensive shooter might find himself?
4. How do thumbs-forward shooters account for slick hands in non-competition environments?

When you said you had a class, was it with an IPSC shooter? There are nuances to thumbs forward that can be hard to self-diagnose. Things like support wrist cant, locking of support hand finger, exactly where the strong thumb rests on the support thumb.

As far as your questions,

2. use the SAME grip. I use same grip for both revs (my SP101) and semis no prob. You'll really screw yourself up if you develop different grips for different guns.

3. I train extensively in non-competitive (combat/defense) venues, and you'll find you end up shooting with one-hand in anycase - not quite as much two-hand grip. Sure, not as accurate as two-hand, but you'll find if you're doing serious FOF training like with SI classes, no way you'll have time unless you're incorporating cover, etc. into your training. Get good at one-handed shooting.

4. Slick hands? two suggestions, grip tape or other stippling, etc. on your firearm, work on your breathing / relaxation techniques that you can call up on demand.

[.40-.45]

could the differance in grip angle on the two firearms be giving him some trouble?

[EeeAhhrrr]

Thanks for the feedback. Here are the only two photos I have online at the moment. Both have been posted on the other boards:





I took my training from an IPSC shooter and I used my G19 for the class (it was just he and I actually). When I took the class we assumed the Glock was a proper fit to my hands. As it is, I've never worked with anyone who has shown me how a pistol should fit my hands for this grip. Some pistols - such as the aforementioned Airweight - leave no room at all for my support hand while others (like a G30 or my G19 with a Hogue) are too fat and my support hand can't really wrap around enough to clamp down. I've felt the M&P to be the most accommodating so far.
The grips on the guns do indeed make a difference, as I find my M&P9 to be easier to use with the thumbs-forward grip. My Glock by contrast feels more like a 2x4 unless my hands are swollen and warmed up, in which case they fill in any gaps. I have the largest backstrap on my M&P in order to allow the most room on the support-hand side for my support-hand thumb-meat. The medium backstrap allows me to wrap a little more of my strong hand around the gun (which in turn gets my support hand fingers further around as well) but it provides less room for my support hand on the grip itself.

Thanks again. My goals specifically are CCW and not competition. If the two overlap then great. If not then I'd prefer to error on the side of CCW effectiveness.

I train extensively in non-competitive (combat/defense) venues, and you'll find you end up shooting with one-hand in anycase - not quite as much two-hand grip. Sure, not as accurate as two-hand, but you'll find if you're doing serious FOF training like with SI classes, no way you'll have time unless you're incorporating cover, etc. into your training. Get good at one-handed shooting.

Excellent advice and something I've considered but haven't practiced. If this is the case, would it be beneficial to revert back to a thumbs locked down and lose the rapid fire advantage in favor of a grip that I know works for me? My G19 with a Hogue fits every need I have...except thumbs-forward. In that regard it's just a little too fat.

[bigun]

Are you trying to learn this grip to shoot competition or for real world shooting. Try a 1911 and see if it makes it easier, the narrow grip section might make it easier to be consistant. Gun fit is a very subjective thing, I can not shoot well with Glocks as all of my handgun training has been with Beretta's and 1911's, the XD also has a similar grip angle. get a solid grip pick a spot on the wall and bring your sights to bear if you have to readjust then the gun doesnt fit. It should be as simple as pointing your finger. Also try experimenting with the S&W grip frame, try the differant back straps untill you find which one allows you to accomplish the exercise. Also dont practice just one gripping style as the situation may require a differant one. I shot Weaver exclusively untill it was pointed out to me that I am presenting the weakest portion of my body armour to a possible adversary, I have modified my stance and grip to a modified weaver, kind of half way between a Weaver and isocolese to give my vitals a little more protection.

[vafish]

My personal opinion.

A lot of folks have opinions on what is best. It's usually based on what works best for them. We are all different and the one thing I've learned in my years as a shooting coach and instructor is that there is no one right answer for all shooters. A good coach or instructor will know several ways to make things work and let the shooter try them to see which fits them best.

I don't care how many experts tell you that a certain grip, gun, stance, or whatever is the best. Until you can make it work for you it's worthless.

I think you've wasted enough time and money on the thumbs forward grip. Stick with what you know works for you, lock the thumbs down and move on.

[dobbsjv]

I agree vafish. If you are in a situation that escalated to using deadly force, the last thing on your mind will be your grip, I just practice drawing and getting an accurate shot any way I possibly can often. Now, if I am just punching targets, I use the thumbs forward but the majority of my fast draw, quick shot is not thumbs forward. Usually winds up one thumb forward and point pointed out somewhat.

[Brickboy240]

Doesn't alot of this depend on how your current grip is performing?

I mean, if you're hitting center mass..or where you want to hit...does it matter if your thumbs are foreward or not? I shoot with both thumbs foreward, BTW.

I say this because I have had others criticize my finger (from my support hand) being on the front of the trigerguard, but I have shot like this forever and if it feels natural and I can hit where I am aiming most of the time....is it REALLY wrong? Besides, way back when, everybody was doing this and they modded their pistols to add checkering or scallops on the front of the triggerguard. Somebody else must have found that comfortable as well...eh?

- brickboy240

[vafish]

Brikboy,

I don't like thumbs forward or the finger on the triggerguard.

But that doesn't mean that it is wrong for someone else.

If it works for you it's not wrong.