XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!
 

Go Back   XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source! > Main Room > Non-XD, Other Gun Discussion Area
Register Forum Rules Blogs FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
XDTalk Memberships Gold Sponsorships XDTalk Sponsors XDTalk Pro Logo Shop Photo Gallery Wiki ChatBox


Welcome to the XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source! forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.

*** Registration also removes the In-Text Advertising when viewing threads on XDTalk! ***

Also, registering gets you started on gaining access to The Trading Post and Blogs after 30 days and 100 posts! Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-25-2007, 10:50 PM   #1
XDTalk 500 Member
 
beakersloco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville NC
Posts: 988
Send a message via AIM to beakersloco
New findings from FBI about cop attackers & their weapons

Not sure if this has already been posted but I found this on another broad.

original article
http://www.policeone.com/writers/col...icles/1243754/
New findings from FBI about cop attackers & their weapons
[From Force Science News provided by The Force Science Research Center.
New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.
Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:
--show signs of being armed that officers miss;
--have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;
--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;
--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

These and other weapons-related findings comprise one chapter in a 180-page research summary called “Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers.” The study is the third in a series of long investigations into fatal and nonfatal attacks on POs by the FBI team of Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto, clinical forensic psychologist, and Ed Davis, criminal investigative instructor, both with the Bureau’s Behavioral Science Unit, and Charles Miller III, coordinator of the LEOs Killed and Assaulted program.
“Violent Encounters” also reports in detail on the personal characteristics of attacked officers and their assaulters, the role of perception in life-threatening confrontations, the myths of memory that can hamper OIS investigations, the suicide-by-cop phenomenon, current training issues, and other matters relevant to officer survival. (Force Science News and our strategic partner PoliceOne.com will be reporting on more findings from this landmark study in future transmissions.)
Commenting on the broad-based study, Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, called it “very challenging and insightful--important work that only a handful of gifted and experienced researchers could accomplish.”
From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.
Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:
Weapon Choice
Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available “was the overriding factor in weapon choice,” the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun “because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being.”
Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”
__________________
\"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
beakersloco is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 10:50 PM   #2
XDTalk 500 Member
 
beakersloco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville NC
Posts: 988
Send a message via AIM to beakersloco
The rest of the article as the forum wont let me post it in one

Familiarity
Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing “most of the time.” Gang members especially started young.
Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% “regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year,” the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and “street corners in known drug-trafficking areas.”
One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers “go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything.”
In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this “may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills,” the study says.
The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.
More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these “street combat veterans,” all from “inner-city, drug-trafficking environments,” had taken part in 5 or more “criminal firefight experiences” in their lifetime.
One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, “about 18 before a cop shot me.” Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience “because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again.”
Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.
Concealment
The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, “most often a female companion.” None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.
In motor vehicles, they most often kept their firearm readily available on their person, or, less often, under the seat. In residences, most stashed their weapon under a pillow, on a nightstand, under the mattress--somewhere within immediate reach while in bed.
Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one-third brought weapons with them to work. Interestingly, the offenders in this study more commonly admitted having guns under all these circumstances than did offenders interviewed in the researchers’ earlier 2 surveys, conducted in the 1980s and ’90s.
According to Davis, “Male offenders said time and time again that female officers tend to search them more thoroughly than male officers. In prison, most of the offenders were more afraid to carry contraband or weapons when a female CO was on duty.”
On the street, however, both male and female officers too often regard female subjects “as less of a threat, assuming that they not going to have a gun,” Davis said. In truth, the researchers concluded that more female offenders are armed today than 20 years ago--“not just female gang associates, but female offenders generally.”
Shooting Style
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, “claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights,” the study says.
“They practice getting the gun out and using it,” Davis explained. “They shoot for effect.” Or as one of the offenders put it: “[W]e’re not working with no marksmanship….We just putting it in your direction, you know….It don’t matter…as long as it’s gonna hit you…if it’s up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever….Once I squeeze and you fall, then…if I want to execute you, then I could go from there.”
Hit Rate
More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers, the study found. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)
Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, “10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers.”
Missed Cues
Officers would less likely be caught off guard by attackers if they were more observant of indicators of concealed weapons, the study concludes. These particularly include manners of dress, ways of moving and unconscious gestures often related to carrying.
“Officers should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back and crotch areas,” the study says, and watch for “shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth.” In warm weather, multilayered clothing inappropriate to the temperature may be a giveaway. On cold or rainy days, a subject’s jacket hood may not be covering his head because it is being used to conceal a handgun.
Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a concealed gun with hands or arms “to assure themselves that it is still hidden, secure and accessible” and hasn’t shifted. Such gestures are especially noticeable “whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle.” If they run, they may need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it.
Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals “do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access.”
An irony, Davis noted, is that officers who are assigned to look for concealed weapons, while working off-duty security at night clubs for instance, are often highly proficient at detecting them. “But then when they go back to the street without that specific assignment, they seem to ‘turn off’ that skill,” and thus are startled--sometimes fatally--when a suspect suddenly produces a weapon and attacks.
Mind-set
Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had “experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority” to use deadly force “but chose not to shoot.” They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. “It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available,” the researchers concluded.
The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team “did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don’t hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant.”
“Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms,” the report states. “In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality.
“Officers never can assume that a criminal is unarmed until they have thoroughly searched the person and the surroundings themselves.” Nor, in the interest of personal safety, can officers “let their guards down in any type of law enforcement situation.”
__________________
\"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
beakersloco is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 08:27 AM   #3
XDTalk 100 Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 156
thanks and WOW.
__________________
no point in listing my guns I have a few...
dashotgun is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 12:50 PM   #4
XDTalk 100 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 166
damn....lots of scary stuff there.
Lucky Strike is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 01:01 PM   #5
XDTalk 1K Member
 
fritzmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: southeast Nebraska
Posts: 1,402
Good info. I hesitate to say that in the last section titled "Mind Set", another small factor as to why cops don't tend to fire first, is that they don't want to get taken to court. They can't afford to lose their job/income, and yet they also can't afford to lose their life. It's a no-win situation for them, unfortunately.
__________________
...to be truely happy in life, one must learn to embrace the recoil.....
fritzmeister is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #6
XDTalk 100 Member
 
Tdah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 295
Send a message via Yahoo to Tdah
i was especially surprised about the offenders practicing so much. i wouldn't have thought that. i'd be interested to see the breakdown of how much the attempted cop-killers practiced: were they criminals that were confronted by police and attacked out of fear of being caught, or did they intentionally head out that day to attack a cop?
Tdah is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 10:05 AM   #7
XDTalk 1K Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdah View Post
i was especially surprised about the offenders practicing so much. i wouldn't have thought that. i'd be interested to see the breakdown of how much the attempted cop-killers practiced: were they criminals that were confronted by police and attacked out of fear of being caught, or did they intentionally head out that day to attack a cop?
Yeah but they don't practice like we practice.

If they step out back into the alley and fire 5 shots, then run off that's practice to them.

They don't go to a range and shoot 100, 200, 300+ rounds in a session.

The article even explains that most of them don't use the sights, they just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. They practice Spray and Pray.

What sad is that so few officers practice with the tool to save their life.
__________________
\"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children.\" -- Confucius
vafish is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 11:06 AM   #8
XDTalk 1K Member
 
wombat13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,505
While it is interesting how frequently the perps practiced and how infrequently some LEOs practice (given that they are putting their lives on the line), it seems likely that these are not the primary reasons for the perps relatively high hit rate compared to the LEOs. Granted, I'm no expert, but I suspect that the primary reasons for the perps success were:

1. They typically fired first.
2. They were more likely to have had firefight experience. 40% of perps but only 16% of the officers had been in a firefight previously.
wombat13 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 11:33 AM   #9
XDTalk 3K Member
 
Ishpeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,998
Send a message via ICQ to Ishpeck Send a message via AIM to Ishpeck Send a message via MSN to Ishpeck Send a message via Yahoo to Ishpeck
So.....

1. Cops tend to be people with strong morals who understand the weight of responsibility they have with regards to life and death.

2. Bad guys don't hesitate to shoot and will do so -- expecting you to voluntarily go down and then execute you later if they feel a need.

I therefore concluded.... nothing new: Armed citizens with concealed weapons should pay attention, avoid provoking a fight (since good guys don't tend to shoot first) and develop the physical and psychological conditioning that will capitalize on bad guys' sloppiness with the weapon.

Also: Always use a holster. It marks you as a not-bad-guy -- or at least, not a common gangbanger.
__________________
If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?
http://www.ishpeck.net/

Last edited by Ishpeck; 09-27-2007 at 11:36 AM.
Ishpeck is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 12:55 PM   #10
XDTalk 3K Member
 
Bree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 3,210
Blog Entries: 5
You have one POWERFUL advantage over a LEO. The BG knows that the LEO has a weapon that can kill him. The BG does NOT know that you have a deadly weapon which is a direct threat to him.

For this reason it is CRITICAL that we never allow our our carry status to be known. Letting on that you are armed negates your advantage. At least in similar circumstances the LEO has body armor. We have nothing.

Don't wear XD hats or NRA gear or macho patches with gun threats etc. Look unassuming and unarmed. Then maybe... just maybe the BG will not feel a need to fire first. That gives you that most precious extra moment to act and stop the threat before it can terminate you.

Tout your status... even indirectly... and you are just like a LEO to the BG and he will likely pop you first and then decide if he will execute you once you go down.

Good article! Thanks for sharing.
__________________
Shoot Straight and Ride Safe!
Bree

XD .45 Compact -- Ruger SP-101 .357 Mag. -- Keltec P3AT .380
Rock River Arms 20" Varmint A4 AR-15 w/4-16x56mm MilDot
Ruger 10/22 Black Stainless
Mossberg 590 Mariner 12 Ga w/Knoxx SpecOps
Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Patriot Guard Rider
Iron Butt Association Member

The 60's Can't Die As Long As I Won't Leave Them!!
I support McCain-Palin with CA$H!
Bree is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:19 PM.


 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.1.0
Daniel Kao DBA XDTalk & Kao Holdings