Rifle vs. Pistol question, please read and respond

[HooliganRob]

I was in my fav. local gun shop a few days ago, and they had a few Carbon 15 "Pistols" in, among other styles of AR variant "pistols"
Now what constitutes a pistol vs. a rifle (regarding these types of weapons, as I know fully the answer regarding to traditional pistol styles).

These pistols fired the .223 round just like the rifle variant, ran 12.5" barrels, for all intents and purposes, looked just like the full size rifle variant, just with shorter barrels, and no stock (there was a post that came off the rear of the gun, where the stock would be, it looked like an M4 variant collapseable stock, minus the moving stock.)..... So how is this sold as a pistol, and not a short barrled rifle?

so it being registered as a pistol, would I not be allowed to add an m4 stock to it, to increase accuracy?...

please discuss...
Here are a few pics of what I'm referring to, (these have shorter 7.5" barrles as stated by bushmaster website)









reason I'm bringing this up, is I'm considering buying one and possibly doing a conversion to make somthing like this (if it's legal)

[zane]

It would be VERY ILLEGAL if you didn't pay for an ATF tax stamp for an SBR......

If there's a stock OR a front handgrip it's a rifle according to the ATF, but if you have no stock it's considered a pistol. The definition of a pistol includes the phrase "...... to be fired from one hand ..... ". If the barrel is under 16" on a rifle (e.g. has a stock OR 2 hand grips) it's a short barrelled rifle.

So in that last pic the .223 and 9mm AR's are legally considered SBR's and would require the necessary tax stamps and documentation.

[HooliganRob]

Originally Posted by zane

It would be VERY ILLEGAL if you didn't pay for an ATF tax stamp for an SBR......

If there's a stock OR a front handgrip it's a rifle according to the ATF, but if you have no stock it's considered a pistol. The definition of a pistol includes the phrase "...... to be fired from one hand ..... ". If the barrel is under 16" on a rifle (e.g. has a stock OR 2 hand grips) it's a short barrelled rifle.

So in that last pic the .223 and 9mm AR's are legally considered SBR's and would require the necessary tax stamps and documentation.

I did some checking, and came up with somthing from the ATF saying that the foregrip does not make it a sbr, it makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon), still requireing a 200 dollar tax stamp, as it doesnt fall into the catagory of a rifle...

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226
NOV 25 1997 F:SD:FTB:GKD
3311
Dear Mr. :
This refers to your letter of November 6, 1997, requesting
information on the manufacture of a firearm to be classified as an
"any other weapon," as that term is defined in the National
Firearms Act (NFA).
You describe the proposed firearm as being manufactured using an
AR15 type lower receiver that has never been assembled as a
complete firearm and installing a "pistol length barrel," a rear
pistol grip, a vertical foregrip, shrouded barrel and a flash
hider. This firearm would utilize a detachable magazine installed
outside the pistol grip. (note that the only thing in the description
that is NOT part of a normal AR pistol build is the second vertical fore grip)
A firearm manufactured from the described components and in the
described manner would not be a pistol as defined in either Title
27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 178 or 179, nor would
it be classified as a rifle or shotgun, not being designed to be
held and fired from the shoulder. Further, it is not classified as
a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in Title 18 U.S.C.,
Chapter 44, Section 921(a)(30), hence it is not subject to the
prohibition on the manufacture, transfer or possession of
semiautomatic assault weapons as provided in Title 18 U.S.C.,
Chapter 44, Section 922(v).
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has previously
held that a firearm of the type described in your letter is
classified as an "any other weapon" and is subject to all of the
provisions of the NFA. Such a firearm could legally be
manufactured and transferred by a Class II manufacturer. An
unlicensed individual could manufacture such a firearm by first
submitting an AT Form 1, APPLICATION TO MAKE AND REGISTER A
FIREARM, to ATF. Upon receipt of the approved form, the individual
could then proceed to manufacture the firearm.
- 2 -
Mr.
We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.
Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives


Washington, DC 20226


Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

I do appreciate your imput though..... I'm still searching for atf documents on the rules for a SBR......
as I really want one of these damn things.... I guess I'll have to suck up the 200 dollar stamp..... but then again, it's not much different than dropping the additonal money into the gun for accessories..... I guess ya gotta pay to play....

[fastboy]

This becomes a rifle if you put a stock on it; with the 12.5 inch barrel, it then turns into a SBR. BATF's definition of a SBR is: "Rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inch in length." $200 tax required. See the BATF document (large PDF file, takes a while to load from their website, but very clear visual aids):

http://www.atf.gov/docs/Identificati...rearms_pt1.pdf

Since not every state allows sbr (MI for example doesn't allow sbr), the gun manufacturers therefore come up with the stockless version of sbr to fit it into the pistol category. All these rules and counter measures make no sense to me if you ask me.

[Apdl]

Originally Posted by HooliganRob

reason I'm bringing this up, is I'm considering buying one and possibly doing a conversion to make somthing like this (if it's legal)

looks kinda like a good ole american Mp5

[HooliganRob]

Originally Posted by fastboy

All these rules and counter measures make no sense to me if you ask me.

that can be said for the ATF as a whole as well too.....

[bd]

I see very little point in having "pistols" that shoot ammo ballistically designed for rifles and/or having "rifles" that use ammo that is designed for use in short barrelled handguns.

To each his own, and if I had the extra money I'd have one of everything.

But if it's what you want and it makes you happy - then by all means I think you should have one.

Just my opinion.

.....from one hooligan to another.......

bd

[mgeoffriau]

I hate all these freaking stupid rules. Seriously. The more I think about the whole situation, the more pissed off I get. Freaking stupid.

[fastboy]

Originally Posted by mgeoffriau

I hate all these freaking stupid rules. Seriously. The more I think about the whole situation, the more pissed off I get. Freaking stupid.

Yeah, my Bushy M4 has the flash hide permanently attached to make the barrel "16 inch" as opposed to "15 inch." Yuhoo, like that's gonna make a BIG difference!

[Timmy44221]

I suggest getting a PLR-16 by kel-tec I like it better for a .223 pistol