CCW: Taurus PT111 or XD9

[Eeyore]

All,

I'm looking for a 9 mm handgun for self-defense, with the probablility of CCW once I take the course. I plan to go to the range every couple of months to keep reasonably current, but I don't plan on putting more than 500 rounds thru it in a year.

I have shot the XD9 and I like it a lot. I have no doubt it is a reliable and durable gun. However, I'm a newbie and its easy trigger combined with lack of a manual safety worries me and (perhaps more importantly) my wife.

Therefore, I am seriously considering a Taurus PT111 Pro--about the same size as a XD9sc, but with a manual safety (and a built-in lock to boot). The ability for a second strike is also a nice plus. I haven't found a range that rents them, and I don't know anybody that owns one; therefore I haven't fired one. I know that Taurus has a bad rep for many people, and that they had problems with the Millenium line (especially the PT145) a few years ago.

I've asked this same question on the Taurus forums, and nearly everybody there had nice things to say about their PT1xx Pro. This being the XD Forum, I would expect a heavy bias towards the XD9. But if anybody has worked with the Millenium Pro PT111/140/145, I'd love to hear your opinions on their relative merits. Thanks

[Mr. S]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

All,

I'm looking for a 9 mm handgun for self-defense, with the probablility of CCW once I take the course. I plan to go to the range every couple of months to keep reasonably current, but I don't plan on putting more than 500 rounds thru it in a year.

I have shot the XD9 and I like it a lot. I have no doubt it is a reliable and durable gun. However, I'm a newbie and its easy trigger combined with lack of a manual safety worries me and (perhaps more importantly) my wife.

Therefore, I am seriously considering a Taurus PT111 Pro--about the same size as a XD9sc, but with a manual safety (and a built-in lock to boot). The ability for a second strike is also a nice plus. I haven't found a range that rents them, and I don't know anybody that owns one; therefore I haven't fired one. I know that Taurus has a bad rep for many people, and that they had problems with the Millenium line (especially the PT145) a few years ago.

I've asked this same question on the Taurus forums, and nearly everybody there had nice things to say about their PT1xx Pro. This being the XD Forum, I would expect a heavy bias towards the XD9. But if anybody has worked with the Millenium Pro PT111/140/145, I'd love to hear your opinions on their relative merits. Thanks

I havent actually shot one of the new Milennium Pro's but I dry fired one yesterday(Pt-111) that had the SA trigger and it was very nice, easily superior to my Xd-Sc. I know that's not much help but at least it's a start.
It was also under $300 new!!

[jednp]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

All,

I'm looking for a 9 mm handgun for self-defense, with the probablility of CCW once I take the course. I plan to go to the range every couple of months to keep reasonably current, but I don't plan on putting more than 500 rounds thru it in a year.

I have shot the XD9 and I like it a lot. I have no doubt it is a reliable and durable gun. However, I'm a newbie and its easy trigger combined with lack of a manual safety worries me and (perhaps more importantly) my wife.

Therefore, I am seriously considering a Taurus PT111 Pro--about the same size as a XD9sc, but with a manual safety (and a built-in lock to boot). The ability for a second strike is also a nice plus. I haven't found a range that rents them, and I don't know anybody that owns one; therefore I haven't fired one. I know that Taurus has a bad rep for many people, and that they had problems with the Millenium line (especially the PT145) a few years ago.

I've asked this same question on the Taurus forums, and nearly everybody there had nice things to say about their PT1xx Pro. This being the XD Forum, I would expect a heavy bias towards the XD9. But if anybody has worked with the Millenium Pro PT111/140/145, I'd love to hear your opinions on their relative merits. Thanks

The XD technically has 3 safety's. Grip safety, trigger safety, and drop safety. And also the safety between your ears. While I haven't tried this with a live round, because it would be foolish to do so unless you are an expert and know exactly how to take the proper precautions.. I have done it with the gun empty. Hold the gun, don't press the grip safety or trigger safety, and just pull back with the side of the trigger. Nothing happens. now just press the trigger safety and try to fire it.. nothing happens. Now press the grip safety, and not the trigger safety. Nothing happens. Press them all together and pull the trigger, and the gun goes off. the lack of an external safety switch on the XD is no cause for alarm. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have a safety. This is one of the safest guns out there.

And anyways, if you rely on a manual safety you may find yourself drawing a gun if you CCW and notice that you forgot to disengage the safety. Leaving you with an expensive brick to throw.

The most important safety is between your ears. Remember to keep that trigger finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. The only "accidental shootings" that happen, are when a gun actually fails and fires on it's own. Otherwise, it's a negligent shooting because you did something wrong and caused the gun to go off.

The XD is no less safe than a revolver, which has no safety. It's safety is in it's strong double action trigger pull. The xd's safety comes with multiple safeties that have to be activated in unison to make the gun go off. If you can, find a range that rents XD's and try one out so you can see what we're talking about. Or even looking at one in the store, you can see that the trigger will not move if you don't press the grip safety, or if you don't press the trigger safety.

[retired]

but I don't plan on putting more than 500 rounds thru it in a year.

With all due respect, Eeyore, if you plan on the gun for self defense and probably carrying ccw (your words) and don't plan on shooting it more than 500 rounds per year, I'd recommend not buying it. Or at least not using it for self defense.

There is absolutely no way, in my opinion (and I have a little shooting experience), that you can gain the expertise to rely on any firearm for self defense if you only intend to put 500 rounds or less thru it in a year. I believe you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. You should buy both practice ammo (WWB for example from Walmart) and a good, robust defensive ammo and shoot both of them a lot to see how they both shoot and how you handle the gun.

I also believe you are selling yourself short and possibly risking your life if you just shoot that number. I know you didn't ask for my advice and we don't each other from Adam, but I'd hate to find out you were hurt/killed due to your lack of experience in shooting the weapon. Take care.

[jednp]

500 rounds per year? I think I put more than that thru during the first month. I agree with retired 100 %. It doesn't matter what gun you have, it will do you no good to only shoot 500 rounds thru it a year. You won't know your gun, and you won't be very good with it. This isn't just something that you pull the trigger, and that means you know how to shoot a gun. I've put about 2500 rounds thru my XD since I got it in Jan this year. I still don't know my gun as good as I can, otherwise my shooting would be a little bit better.

Knowing your gun has everything to do with the feel of it in your hand, the feel of the trigger, clearing jams, understanding malfunctions, knowing how to properly grip it. All of these take practice, and 500 rounds a year won't get you that. Every single one of those things will play a very important role should you ever need to use the gun for protection. You want that gun to be 2nd nature to you, so when it comes down to using it you don't even have to think about what to do. last thing I want to do should I ever have to defend myself, is wonder how to properly hold my gun, squeeze the trigger, etc.

And trust me when i say this, 500 rounds a year won't cure a flinch problem! You may ask, what is a flinch? You are anticipating the recoil of the gun, so you instinctively push the gun forward to fight the muzzle, but you do this before the shot even goes off. That makes your shots go way low. It can go low enough, or off to the side enough to where you completely miss the target. Like I said, i've put about 2500 rounds thru mine.. that's nothing compared to the amount some others here have thru theirs. And i still have a little bit of a flinchh, but it's almost gone.

Do yourself a favor, and if you decide to get a gun.. don't go in half a$$'d. The first month or two, you better go to the range a lot. And don't go to the range and just blast off rounds. Make each one count. You can go and spend an hour and use 50 rounds, as long as you make sure you learn from each shot. If you intend on carrying, I'd at least go to the range once a month and shoot off 50-100 rounds just to keep fresh. If you don't do that, you may as well just carry a brick to toss at people.

[propellerhead]

The "500 rounds a year" was the first thing that caught my attention. It has been addressed already but I want to say I agree with the responses. You can find 9mm for about $5/box of 50. Range fees are around $10-15. It was about the 2500 round mark when I felt really comfortable with my XD9. Before that, it was just a gun that fired.

On the manual safety... many revolvers don't have a safety. Just a double action trigger, meaning pulling the trigger cocks the gun and fires it. Look at the XD in the same light. Disengage the grip safety by holding the gun properly (and safely!), then pull the trigger. It will disengage the internal safety, cock the gun, and fire it. In that light, it is safer than a revolver.

[LTC-USA]

All I know is that I would not trade my XD 9sc for anything. It is a keeper.

[Eeyore]

All,

Your comments re. maintaining currency are noted, and I thank you for your concern for my proficiency. My point was that this was not intended to be a "workhorse" gun that I shot every weekend or in competitions. I estimated 2 boxes of ammo every other month = 600 rounds.

The skill I do plan on practicing many hours on is building the muscle memory of drawing from the holster and quickly getting into a sights-aligned firing position. Of course, that would be done with the gun empty--hence, no rounds expended. If I bought the PT111, checking the safety off as I brought it level would be part of that routine (I think the new, softer DA/SA trigger on the PT111 reduces the inherent safety compared to the older DAO version.) If I bought the XD, making sure I had my thumb on the back of the slide and not the grip safety until I brought it level would be part of that routine.

More skill is always better, but multiple thousands of rounds per year are not a realistic expectation for me. Furthermore, given my previous experience with the M9, I don't think that's necessary to reach the level of proficiency that I realistically require. It's an imperfect analogy, but I don't have to be Norm Abram to operate a table saw safely and competently. (Not that I wouldn't mind having his level of skill, but I don't plan on building fine furniture.)

I'm certainly no expert, but I can consistently get a 4" grouping at 10 yards using a Weaver stance--no significant flinch problem. When I "test drove" the Glock 19 I shot a 3" group despite the goofy grip angle and annoying muzzle flip. So I'm confident that after a few trips to the range and many hours of "dry" drawing practice, I can shoot my new gun sufficiently safely and accurately to not be a danger to myself or others (at least the others I'm not trying to be a danger to ) I don't expect to be able to shoot a roach off a fence at 50 yards, nor do I see a practical need.

"Jednp:" Since all the automatics I've looked at have a drop/firing pin safety, I didn't mention it. I've already fired the XD9 on 2 occasions and I agree that the grip safety makes the XD safer than a comparable Glock, and that training is key with any gun (or power tool). However, my wife is very inexperienced with firearms and I think she would feel much more comfortable with a gun equipped with a manual safety.

With that said, and with all due respect, that is all a subject for a different thread. Only "Mr. S." has even attempted to answer my question. (Thank you, sir!) Could somebody with experience with both an XD and a Taurus PT1xx Pro please discuss the pros/cons of these two weapons for CCW?

[Hooz]

The original two problems with the Millenium line from Taurus were finish issues and trigger weight. Both of those issues have been addressed by the Millenium Pro (new metal and finish, and the new trigger is fantastic). I've been debating a Taurus for my wife actually.

The one real option I'd recommend for CCW is a good set of night sights. There are plenty available for the XD, not-so-much for the Taurus.

[kentuckywingman]

I have the Taurus Millenium Pro PT140 in .40 S&W. Mine has the stainless slide and I really love the little gun. It's a great sized gun for CC and it's really a nice little shooter and very accurate. I have put almost 1000 rounds through it since purchasing it 2 months ago. I have been looking at getting a .40 XD but am looking at the service model as I really do like the .40 round and would like a full sized gun to shoot as well as my Millenium.