Hi Everyone.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by lightfighter

welcome to the site... how on earth did you get a CWP in NY.. i grew up there and was always told youd have to move heaven and earth to get one

Thanks everyone for the nice welcome.

Got home today from a motorcycle ride, opened the mail, and there was my new Pistol Permit. The form letter had some inconsistencies but the permit itself was spot-on correct and the permit is what counts. My coupons were included so I called my gunsmith and went over to pick up my Ruger and my new XD 45 Compact.

The guns are now home. I promptly cleaned and lubed the 357 Mag and loaded it and a speedloader with 38 Special +P Golden Sabres. So one gun is now in defense service.

I am studying the manual of the XD. Once I get the manual read, I will learn how to strip it for cleaning and then do some preflighting before picking up some ammo and heading down to the range to start break in procedures.

Not sure what ammo is best to use for breaking in the XD. I will do some research on the site to see what others have tried. Of course, any suggestions are most welcome.

In answer to Lightfighter's question, the way to get a CCP in Erie county or any of the hard counties in New York is to start thinking like they do and give them what they want. The key principle is that they do not want everyone to be carrying guns. They are willing, albeit somewhat reluctantly, to allow SOME to have carry privileges but they do not want the AVERAGE CITIZEN to have a concealed weapon.

You will find this phrase used in several county manuals and it is used in the letter sent by the court when they inform you of your date before the judge. They want to make it very clear that ordinary people are not invited to the carry party.

So... to get an unrestricted Pistol Permit in Erie County, you must at least do the following:

1) Establish... as in PROVE... that you are a member of a small group or class of people... hence you are NOT AVERAGE.
2) Establish... as in PROVE or give STRONG REASON TO BELIEVE... that being a member of that small group or class subjects you to substantially higher risk of serious violent crime than the average citizen.

If you do these two things, you have a shot at an unrestricted permit. Note that the burden of proof is on you. The state need do nothing. They have the right to add such restrictions as they see fit. Arguing that the law or process is unjust, unfair, foolish etc. is wasted effort and counter-productive. The court doesn't make the law... they simply interpret it and apply it. So think and talk like an attorney rather than a politician or ideologue. The job is to generate and present evidence.

Understand that no one thing may be sufficient to swing the judge's opinion to your side. You may need to marshall several different justifications for the lack of restriction and allow them to additively tip the scales in your favor. You have to assess accurately and dispassionately your own situation and find each and every way that you are different and distinct from the AVERAGE CITIZEN. Then you have to weave it together and sell it.

That requires preparation. You can't put in your application, get printed, get interviewed by the officer and then just prance into court thinking that you will slam dunk the judge. That is very foolish and has a very low probability of success. This must be finessed it seems to me.

Find a way to give the judge cover if someone challenges his issuance of the unrestricted permit. Pretend that you are the judge and are defending your decision. If you can give him or her a rock solid case, you will very likely score the permit.

Note that saying stuff like, "I live in a bad neighborhood", really doesn't address the issue. Lots of people live in a bad neighborhood. Heck in Buffalo you might as well say that everyone lives in a bad neighborhood. That is the milieu of the AVERAGE CITIZEN. It utterly fails to establish the special nature of your case.

Now living in a bad neighborhood might be an ADDITIONAL CIRCUMSTANCE that reinforces or enhances something that does differentiate you. That is valuable. But things must be placed into the proper context and must contribute to the key goal of giving the court a way to say YES to you but NO to most everyone else.

I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that if you knock down those two first steps, you can always add additional steps that increase the intellectual velocity and power of your argument.

That's what I did and it worked for me. I have laid out a simple explanation of my general thinking. Others might be able to find other ways that work as well. It may be that I just got lucky. Who knows. But I have faith that rational preparation, planning, and argument give the best chance of getting a YES verdict from the court.

Without going into all the specifics, my particular arguments focused on HATE CRIMES. I made a detailed and thorough presentation and added many enhancements. I justified with evidence every level of pistol permit offered from Possess Only, Hunting/Target, Business, up to Unrestricted 24/7 Carry. And I had experiences held in reserve and not presented in my application to respond to objections or scepticism by the judge on the spot. That was very effective. I withheld them because they could not be proven... no police report was filed. Nevertheless when asked I machinegunned off details in a way that produced confidence in the truth of what I was saying, a picture of genuine and demonstrable risk, and calm, collected handling of these circumstances.

Taken together as a whole package, it was convincing to this judge. It might not have worked for another judge but you do the best that you can with the cards you have been dealt.

Good luck!!

[Bree]

Originally Posted by propellerhead

Great news! Welcome to XDTalk.


You mean NY recognizes your *right* to carry.

No actually, I do not believe that is correct. New York does NOT recognize my right to carry. The state recognizes the right of individual counties and municipalities to interpret their own needs and through a tool of restrictions the county can effectively create or deny a right for me to carry. Only upon the de facto creation of that right by my home county does the state recognize my right to carry.

The home county creates my right by choosing not to restrict the raw and unrefined "right" passed down from the state. If they restrict or deny my carry privilege, I have no real recourse but to move and try in another county. Or try to get another judge in the same county to consider a new application.

In NY, your 2nd amendment Federal "right" has little power. They have taken that power unto themselves and devolved it down to the local level for administration and interpretation. It is a terrible and extremely unjust way of doing things. I have no idea how they came to this system but I know it sucks.

Illinois is much more rational. They don't want the general public to carry and the general public simply can't carry without risking several years in the slammer with no possibility of parole. At least it is equitable compared to the NY nuthouse where the same argument may be presented to two different judges in the same county on the same day and get two entirely different results.

[lightfighter]

Originally Posted by Bree

Thanks everyone for the nice welcome.

Got home today from a motorcycle ride, opened the mail, and there was my new Pistol Permit. The form letter had some inconsistencies but the permit itself was spot-on correct and the permit is what counts. My coupons were included so I called my gunsmith and went over to pick up my Ruger and my new XD 45 Compact.

The guns are now home. I promptly cleaned and lubed the 357 Mag and loaded it and a speedloader with 38 Special +P Golden Sabres. So one gun is now in defense service.

I am studying the manual of the XD. Once I get the manual read, I will learn how to strip it for cleaning and then do some preflighting before picking up some ammo and heading down to the range to start break in procedures.

Not sure what ammo is best to use for breaking in the XD. I will do some research on the site to see what others have tried. Of course, any suggestions are most welcome.

In answer to Lightfighter's question, the way to get a CCP in Erie county or any of the hard counties in New York is to start thinking like they do and give them what they want. The key principle is that they do not want everyone to be carrying guns. They are willing, albeit somewhat reluctantly, to allow SOME to have carry privileges but they do not want the AVERAGE CITIZEN to have a concealed weapon.

You will find this phrase used in several county manuals and it is used in the letter sent by the court when they inform you of your date before the judge. They want to make it very clear that ordinary people are not invited to the carry party.

So... to get an unrestricted Pistol Permit in Erie County, you must at least do the following:

1) Establish... as in PROVE... that you are a member of a small group or class of people... hence you are NOT AVERAGE.
2) Establish... as in PROVE or give STRONG REASON TO BELIEVE... that being a member of that small group or class subjects you to substantially higher risk of serious violent crime than the average citizen.

If you do these two things, you have a shot at an unrestricted permit. Note that the burden of proof is on you. The state need do nothing. They have the right to add such restrictions as they see fit. Arguing that the law or process is unjust, unfair, foolish etc. is wasted effort and counter-productive. The court doesn't make the law... they simply interpret it and apply it. So think and talk like an attorney rather than a politician or ideologue. The job is to generate and present evidence.

Understand that no one thing may be sufficient to swing the judge's opinion to your side. You may need to marshall several different justifications for the lack of restriction and allow them to additively tip the scales in your favor. You have to assess accurately and dispassionately your own situation and find each and every way that you are different and distinct from the AVERAGE CITIZEN. Then you have to weave it together and sell it.

That requires preparation. You can't put in your application, get printed, get interviewed by the officer and then just prance into court thinking that you will slam dunk the judge. That is very foolish and has a very low probability of success. This must be finessed it seems to me.

Find a way to give the judge cover if someone challenges his issuance of the unrestricted permit. Pretend that you are the judge and are defending your decision. If you can give him or her a rock solid case, you will very likely score the permit.

Note that saying stuff like, "I live in a bad neighborhood", really doesn't address the issue. Lots of people live in a bad neighborhood. Heck in Buffalo you might as well say that everyone lives in a bad neighborhood. That is the milieu of the AVERAGE CITIZEN. It utterly fails to establish the special nature of your case.

Now living in a bad neighborhood might be an ADDITIONAL CIRCUMSTANCE that reinforces or enhances something that does differentiate you. That is valuable. But things must be placed into the proper context and must contribute to the key goal of giving the court a way to say YES to you but NO to most everyone else.

I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that if you knock down those two first steps, you can always add additional steps that increase the intellectual velocity and power of your argument.

That's what I did and it worked for me. I have laid out a simple explanation of my general thinking. Others might be able to find other ways that work as well. It may be that I just got lucky. Who knows. But I have faith that rational preparation, planning, and argument give the best chance of getting a YES verdict from the court.

Without going into all the specifics, my particular arguments focused on HATE CRIMES. I made a detailed and thorough presentation and added many enhancements. I justified with evidence every level of pistol permit offered from Possess Only, Hunting/Target, Business, up to Unrestricted 24/7 Carry. And I had experiences held in reserve and not presented in my application to respond to objections or scepticism by the judge on the spot. That was very effective. I withheld them because they could not be proven... no police report was filed. Nevertheless when asked I machinegunned off details in a way that produced confidence in the truth of what I was saying, a picture of genuine and demonstrable risk, and calm, collected handling of these circumstances.

Taken together as a whole package, it was convincing to this judge. It might not have worked for another judge but you do the best that you can with the cards you have been dealt.

Good luck!!

great explanation.. always wondered why was it that certain ppl were allowed to carry while most were not... being that I live in FL now lol i need now worry about that.. and thanks to my DD214.. no need for the class.. just sent them the certified check for license fees along with a copy of my fingerprints and bam approx 3 months later got my card in the mail.. but its kickass to hear you were able to obtain yours in the state of NY

[Tally XD]

Welcome!

[Cubicle Commando]

welcome fellow newbie and holy smokes on the New York CCW procedures! I travel to Long Island and upstate all the time, my wife is from Putnam county and went to college in Plattsburgh.

[NC Dave]

Welcome, Bree, and congratulations on getting the permit!

It is obvious from your first 4 postings that your input and insight will be a great addition to this site.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by lightfighter

great explanation.. always wondered why was it that certain ppl were allowed to carry while most were not... being that I live in FL now lol i need now worry about that.. and thanks to my DD214.. no need for the class.. just sent them the certified check for license fees along with a copy of my fingerprints and bam approx 3 months later got my card in the mail.. but its kickass to hear you were able to obtain yours in the state of NY

Thanks Lightfighter! I held a Florida CWP for many years. They have a very logical system. Everyone is assumed to have the right to self defense and handgun carry unless they surrender it through bad action or mental defect. Apply, pay your fee, get printed, take your safety class, read the Jack Hagler Self Defense Act, pass background check, and you are good to go. (Not necessarily in that precise order! LOL!)

I will probably pick up a PA CCP very shortly. It is easy as pie once you have a permit issued by your state. Helps chain reciprocity since NY only has reciprocity with 17 states.

[bat1159man]

Bree - congrats on the CCW in NY and welcome from a Newbie in Illinois. You are right about the Land of Lincoln. The state is consistent in the belief of no CCP but reasonable in obtaining a FOID and a firearm. Chicago on the other hand has one of the most restrictive anti-handgun ordinances in the country. It doesn't stop the shootings or the crime but makes great copy in the press.

[MasLakas]

Welcome to the forum from UT. The XD is a great firearm and I carry a XD45 Service model myself.

[cid_ayrbourne]

You live in Buffalo? You have my condolences. However, that said, welcome to the Forums and grats on your CCP. I couldn't get mine while living in NY (was over in Canadaigua) and had to wait til I moved back to FL to get one.

But then, I'm a Florida boy by birth, and that whole "snow" thing didn't sit well with me anyways