Upgraded my 1911 desires and looking for all y'alls expert opinions

[fearless1]

Originally Posted by jimi4444

Umm what are you comparing it to that has the same quality that is $250 less? I would like to know so I can go purchase a sub $800 gun that has the same quality.

I think what you are doing is simply looking at a brief overlook of what a Dan Wesson gun is and that is where you are thinking that you can find a gun for $250 less. Most of the internals are the same parts that go into Les Baers, Wilson Combat, Brown and the other high end models. Let alone the difference in slide slop, the crisp trigger and the customer service are on par and if not better than the other high end models. This all comes straight out of box. The main reason they are the price that they are because they are pretty much a assembly line without much customizing.

Again what catalog or what weapons do you think are on par with Dan Wessons that go for $250 less.

See next post for prices.

Ahh...you are assuming Taurus quality is poor or sub par perhaps? You are also assume that since the gun is assembly line, it can't be that good (like Sig and Glock perhaps)!? The thing is, there is some custom work done at the factory level on the Taurus PT 1911s. I also have extensive first hand experience using parts from Les Baer, Wilson, Brown, as well as Nowlin, STI, Cylinder & Slide, Caspian, etc. in the custom guns that I have built. Are you sure these parts are REALLY that good, or perhaps better branding is what you are really seeing. Is the $50 to $100 I spend for a Wilson/EB/Nowlin/C&S, etc hammer going to be "better" than the fugly hammer that comes standard on the PT1911 (functionally, it isn't)? How much slide slop are you claiming typically exists in the Taurus? What are you claiming is the quality and wt of the trigger pull of a Taurus?

By far, the best 1911s I own are the ones I've built for myself using parts from the aforementioned vendors listed above. The major components were hand fitted for maximum accuracy and the controls perfectly contoured for aesthetic purposes. Custom finishes then applied for corrosion resistance and bling factor. For years though, my carry guns were two parkarized Norinco 1911A1s that I paid only $229 each. I slightly tricked out one of them to the tune of about $150 in custom parts. These Norincos function with complete reliability although accuracy is average, certainly good for "general purpose" uses. They are also far more affordable in terms of theft or loss.

Out of curiosity and without much time to deliberate, I purchased a Taurus PT 1911 SS a few months ago from a local Sportman’s Warehouse that was liquidating its inventory. It was the first over the counter 1911 of any kind I had purchased in over 15 years. The first thing I did with it was not fire it, but disassemble it and perform a detailed analysis of its parts and functionality. I was surprised for once, not having to tune a 1911 in any way for any reason. As Taurus claims, the PT1911 comes with a "custom shop trigger job". The trigger in my PT1911 SS breaks clean with no grit at around 4.5 lbs and at a wonderfully light and crisp 3.5 lbs if I remove the firing pin plunger. The barrel underlugs were cut almost perfectly, allowing no discernable barrel movement while not binding the slide when the gun is in battery. I've handled some pricier SAs that had slightly oversized barrel underlugs causing significant binding of the slide. Your so-called slide to frame "slop" you claim is only about .0015 to .002 inch in my one sample. It's reliability has been 100% to date and the best shot group I've got out of it so far is just under an inch at 25 yrds (bench rest with hand loaded ammo) though 1.5 to 2 inches were typical. The only real issue I may have with the gun are some sharp edges, nothing a little bit of file and sandpaper work can’t cure.

Point being, I guess my days of being a “fanboy” enamored by average brands with average aesthetics at moderately higher prices are long behind me. I can guarantee you that functionally speaking, a $1500 1911 is NOT going to be $800 “better” than say a $700 1911, especially if they have almost the same features. I guess my own primary emphasis these days has been “bang for buck” for the average stuff, especially since I also have the ability to tune, customize, and even fix my own guns anyway. Speaking of which, the fastest way to get warranty service from Taurus is NOT to send them your gun. Instead, the fastest way by far is to simply send them the busted part for fast free replacement under the lifetime warranty.

Would I ever buy Kimber, SA, Sig, etc. Sure perhaps to round out a 1911 collection of some sort and/or for “wheeling-dealing” purposes. However, when I decide to go for a real premium grade 1911 at higher price, it will most likely be INFINITY at http://www.sviguns.com/

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[fearless1]

For those shopping for guns, use the info below to help for negotiating better prices for your 1911s. Prices obtained from JSC Inc, Fall 2009 Dealer Catalog.
Dealer prices effective July to Oct 2009, listed below in the same order they are listed in the catalog.
Caliber is 45 ACP with 5 inch barrels unless otherwise listed.
SS = Stainless Steel
Bl = blue steel

CZ-USA
Dan Wesson Pointman 7, $929.95
Commander Classic Bobtail, 919.90
Dan Wesson Marksman, 1085.50

Thompson 1911 A1, $439.00

Charles Daly 1911 M5 HI-CAP Polymer, 574.50.

Springfield Armory
Black SS Target 1911 A1 w night sights, 865.50
1911 Loaded Operator, 964.50
1911 Ultra Compact SS, 729.90
1911 Long Slide SS, 845.50
1911 Micro Compact Custom, 986.50
1911 Mil-Spec, 522.50
1911 Mil-Spec Light wt bi-tone w/ night sights, 719.90
1911 Mil-Spec 38 super, 483.50
1911 Mil-Spec SS, 572.50
1911 Mil-Spec WWII, 449.90
1911 Mil-Spec WWII SS 486.50
1911 Mil-Spec WWII OD green, 449.90
1911 Mil-Spec WWII micro compact, 486.50
1911 Mil-Spec WWII wide body parkerized, 493.50
TRP w light rail, blk Armory Kote, adj night sights, 1295.50
TRP SS Novak night sights, 1234.50
TRP blk Kote, Novak night sights, 1234.50
TRP 4 inch light wt, 747.50
TRP light wt Operator, 905.50
Full Size 1911 A1 Target, 45 or 9mm, 745.50
Full Sized 1911 A1 Parkerized w/ night sights, 669.90
1911 Std Trophy Match SS, 1115.50
Enhanced Micro Pistol (EMP)
-Std, 933.50
-40 SW 7 rds, 949.95
-9mm bi-tone, 998.90
-40 SW bi-tone, 998.90
1911 A1 Champion SS, 729.90
1911 A1 Champion light wt bi-tone, 699.90
1911 A1 Full Size SS 45 ACP, 693.50
1911 A1 Full Size SS 9mm, 748.90
1911 A1 Full Size SS 45 ACP, 693.50
1911 A1 black SS, 694.90

Smith & Wesson
Model 1911 SS bi-tone, 974.50
Model 1911 9mm semi pro series, 1058.50
Model 1911 sub compact, 818.50
Model SW1911PD, 823.50
Model SW1911PD Gunsite, 886.50
Model SW1911 SS, 729.90
Model 1911 SS 38 super, 1688.90
Model 1911 Performance Center, 1678.50
Model 1911 Performance Center SS bi-tone, 1563.50
Model 1911 Target SS 813.50
Model 1911 Series 70, 787.50
Model SW1911 Compact ES, 818.50
Model SW1911 SS Crimson Trace Laser, 917.50

Taurus PT 1911
Blue, 489.90
SS, 553.50
Bl w/ walnut grips, 519.90
SS w/ walnut grips, 585.50
Bl w/ light rail, 509.90
SS w/ light rail, 575.50
Duotone, 542.50
Alloy Frame, 541.50
45 ACP 12 + 1 rounds
-Blue, 494.50
-Blue w/ night sights, 529.90
-SS, 559.00

Firestorm
1911 Mil-Spec, 324.95
Deluxe Model, 345.95

Colt
Agent (sub compact), 719.95
Defender (sub compact) SS, 719.95
1918 WWI Reproduction, 806.95
Series 70, 747.50
1911 A1 SS, 681.95
1911 AC Commander, 638.95
1911 Cmdr SS, 681.95
1911 SS 38 super, 704.95
1911 blue 38 super, 680.95
1911 bright SS 38 super, 885.95
Gold Cup National Match, Bomar rear sight, 870.95
Gold Cup National Match, Colt Elliason rear sight, 831.95
Combat Govt, 1362.50
Combat Govt Carry, 1362.50
Combat Govt 38 super, 1362.50
Combat Govt SS/bl bi-tone, 1362.50
Rail Gun SS, 857.95
Commander SS, 767.95

Para-Ordnance
GI Expert, 433.90
PXT 1911 Gun Rights Model, double stack, 711.95
PXT 1911 single stack, 3 inch bbl, 700.95
PXT High Capacity 14 rds
-Warthog alloy, 679.95
- Warthog, SS, 3” bbl, 764.95
- Nitel Hog, alloy, 3” bbl, 775.50
- Bl, 658.50
-Limited, 891.95
PXT Light Dbl Action (LDA) Series, black, 6 rds, 3” bbl, 817.95
PXT Light Dbl Action (LDA) Series, SS 6 rds, 3” bbl, 817.95

WOW….LOTS of 1911s to choose from.



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[ForTehNguyen]

the glock talk classified dropped it to 980 shipped, sounds like he lives close by me too

[jimi4444]

Originally Posted by fearless1

CZ-USA
Commander Classic Bobtail, 919.90

Taurus PT 1911
SS, 553.50

· Round top slide with fixed 3 dot tritium night sights $90
· Forged, one piece match grade barrel and bushing. (I am unsure of the PT1911 barrel so will leave the price out)
· Ed Brown Bobtail mainspring housing $25 ($75 total minus $50 of pt hous)
· Hand polished flat surfaces with contrasting bead blasted rounds $150
· All sharp edges dehorned by hand $75
· Ed Brown memory groove grip safety $15 for upgraded grip safety
· Ed Brown slide stop $15 for upgrade
· Tactical, extended thumb safety $15 for upgrade
· Commander style match hammer $25 for upgrade
· Match grade sear $10 upgrade
· Diamond checkered coco-bolo grips $30

Total $450

Bonuses you can debate :
Tighten frame to slide $75
Trigger (for the mere fact that you do not have an overtravel screw on a pt1911) $15

Total $540

So for an extra $366 you get $540 worth of parts and services. You get out all the MIM parts (enter endless debate of quality of MIM parts, but it is proven that when MIM parts will break since brittle instead of bending as much as a forged would, added safety there) as Taurus even admits most parts are MIM. These are things that I look for in a gun. If you are fine with less than you have that right by all means. I also would debate the "custom" aspect of what Taurus claims vs how Dan Wesson goes about it, but that is something that can't be proven nor truly quantified.

Let alone the customer service you are getting is far superior to that of Taurus. Can you really put a price on that?

I am sure I probably missed a few things in here, but need to go tuck my daughter in.

These parts prices were taken from brownells. They do not include installation as if you get one from the factory there is not much difference in instillation.

You can debate that these parts are not "needed", but that is really in the eye of the buyer. A full non MIM gun for lots puts an ease in their mind (enter debate again), whether they are right or wrong it still gives them that peace.

You can call me a fanboy if you wish but their guns are a gun that I would be very pleased with right out of the box and not think to upgrade it at all. Their customer service is excellent.

[DonXD40]

Originally Posted by Salazabr

I think that's an excellent choice, its on my wishlist too. I've handled them a few times in stores but never shot one. I can't imagine it being a problem though because my other three Springfield 1911s (Loaded SS, LW Champion Operator and Black Stainless target) all shoot like a dream.

If you're patient I've seen them go on gunbroker for around $1,000 and less for used ones. There are also some lightweight operators on gunbroker right now for around the same price. The only major difference is the LW has a FLGR and the LW frame. I've handled both side by side and couldn't believe the weight difference. Both weapons had excellent fit and finish and I know that both are more than capable of outshooting me.

Salazabr, that is exactly where I have been keeping my eyes posted as well as Guns for Sale but thanks.

Originally Posted by danp

That, my good Sir, is my duty gun. I carry it in a Safariland holster with a TLR-2 attached. The only thing I've changed was to replace the grip screws with stainless steel allen-heads. Carrying the gun out in the cruddy weather, the factory screws rusted pretty quickly.

I can routinely bust clay pidgeons at 80 yards. I've shot the PD's qualification course on a 50% reduced target (same target, half the size) and shot 100%. The gun is very accurate and extremely reliable. I've only had a few failures with it and they were all ammo-related.

I say go for it; you won't be sorry.

Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen

the glock talk classified dropped it to 980 shipped, sounds like he lives close by me too

DanP, thanks for your input as I always appreciate your point of view on things even if I do not always agree (very rarely though) and I always seem to learn something from your post. Like in this case, it was very nice to find out that I like the same gun you already own and use as a duty weapon. That speaks volumes to me. Thanks.

[fearless1]

Originally Posted by jimi4444

· Round top slide with fixed 3 dot tritium night sights $90
· Forged, one piece match grade barrel and bushing. (I am unsure of the PT1911 barrel so will leave the price out)
· Ed Brown Bobtail mainspring housing $25 ($75 total minus $50 of pt hous)
· Hand polished flat surfaces with contrasting bead blasted rounds $150
· All sharp edges dehorned by hand $75
· Ed Brown memory groove grip safety $15 for upgraded grip safety
· Ed Brown slide stop $15 for upgrade
· Tactical, extended thumb safety $15 for upgrade
· Commander style match hammer $25 for upgrade
· Match grade sear $10 upgrade
· Diamond checkered coco-bolo grips $30

Total $450

Bonuses you can debate :
Tighten frame to slide $75
Trigger (for the mere fact that you do not have an overtravel screw on a pt1911) $15

Total $540

So for an extra $366 you get $540 worth of parts and services. You get out all the MIM parts (enter endless debate of quality of MIM parts, but it is proven that when MIM parts will break since brittle instead of bending as much as a forged would, added safety there) as Taurus even admits most parts are MIM. These are things that I look for in a gun. If you are fine with less than you have that right by all means. I also would debate the "custom" aspect of what Taurus claims vs how Dan Wesson goes about it, but that is something that can't be proven nor truly quantified.

Let alone the customer service you are getting is far superior to that of Taurus. Can you really put a price on that?

I am sure I probably missed a few things in here, but need to go tuck my daughter in.

These parts prices were taken from brownells. They do not include installation as if you get one from the factory there is not much difference in instillation.

You can debate that these parts are not "needed", but that is really in the eye of the buyer. A full non MIM gun for lots puts an ease in their mind (enter debate again), whether they are right or wrong it still gives them that peace.

You can call me a fanboy if you wish but their guns are a gun that I would be very pleased with right out of the box and not think to upgrade it at all. Their customer service is excellent.

Numerous generalities on your part with some errors in your facts and analysis too. It appears you like to talk of “debate” too instead of actually debating, which I would interpret to mean denial with the inability to factually dispute on your part. Anyway, let’s play the game your way for now.

Adding night sights to the PT would add about $65 (dealer cost). That would raise PT to about $620 to make better apples to apples comparison as a starting point.

Forged barrel: STANDARD. A little bit of effort on your part, and you could have determined on your own if the PT barrel is forged…it is. Not sure of the bushing though.

Polished flats and blasted rounds: STANDARD. PTs come with different finishes. My SS has traditional polished sides and bead blasted rounds.

EB Bobtail MSH…yech, sorry, but I consider this a detraction in value and waste of money (frame would need to be bob tailed too)!

Dehorning is preferable but certainly not a significant issue and can be done for less than $75 too (although I’m sure for the sake of your own argument, you can conveniently find someone who will gladly charge say $500 to do it [as well as polish the flats for this price too]!). I can dehorn the gun myself for free too.

EB style “memory groove” grip safety: STANDARD.

EB Slide Stop? Is this better, worse, or perhaps equivalent to the PT OEM slide stop?

Extended AMBI Tactical Thumb Safety: STANDARD. Means you would deduct say $25 from the CCB.

Cmdr Style Match Hammer: STANDARD (although somewhat fugly and also features a key lock)

Match Grade Sear: STANDARD

PT features “cheap” plastic grips that are certainly functional. Coco bolo would be nice, but certainly not needed.

Slide to frame fit: since you didn’t answer my question about what you know about slide/frame slop in PTs (implying you do not know [while I do know]), you can’t validly add the theoretical value of this service to the CCB.

Aluminum Match Grade Trigger: STANDARD (which in “mere fact”, DOES feature an overtravel screw!).

My price for customer service from pretty much any of the 1911 manufacturers is close to zero since as I have stated before, I have the ability to work on my own guns. CS really matters only when something breaks to begin with too, which is just not that often with 1911s. Heck, in the 25 or so years I’ve been playing with guns, I don’t recall even once having to rely on CS to fix a gun problem that was beyond my ability to fix by myself. Anyway, do you have any kind of reasonable proof of the magnitude of DW’s better CS, or is this something that can be debated too?

Parts that “can be debated as not needed”, well, guess what, no debate here since they aren’t needed in the truest sense of the word!

As for MIM parts, you mention the subject is open to debate, but then apparently view MIM as mostly inferior. Your comment that “Taurus even admits most parts are MIM” implies they are trying to hide something. This of course is your view of their admission. I’m under the impression that Taurus uses MIM as a selling point to their products since their MIM technology is very good. The advantage to MIM is consistent fabrication of intricately detailed parts. Metallurgically speaking, MIM overall don’t have the endurance of forgings, especially for parts subject to high stress such as slides and frames. However, for parts such as sights, grip safeties, screws, etc, that are subject to very little or no stress, MIM can easily provide years of reliable service. So, for PT1911s, how often and what MIM parts are the ones most likely to fail?

So, does this mean that instead of attempting to artificially inflate the value of only the CCB, that the PT with many of its custom parts that are STANDARD can also be value enhanced your way too? Of course it can! Attempting to value compare two different factory built guns by applying the retail prices of after market parts to only one of them is hardly a valid comparison. Perhaps this is how your mind adds value to your DW 1911! There is one monetary value that would be impossible for you to debate. When the dust settles in a purchase of one of two very similar guns, buying the PT will leave more money in the bank account than buying a DW!

Interesting how the mind works, how it artificially inflates the value of one thing so it can view others as “being fine with less than one has” (to presume that the DW is “better” than the PT). Aren’t you also settling for “less” by buying DW and not something such as INFINITY, a presumably better product?

Finally, you know, there really is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. We all are to some extent with many of the brands and products we buy and use. We just have to be careful that the fanboy in us doesn’t blind us to the better things that are usually out there.

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[DonXD40]

I guess my subtle suggestions earlier did no good. So as the OP I ask that any further discussion/debate of the Taurus vs DW be moved to a seperate thread and could we kindly keep the discussion on what I originally asked about which is all things concerning the Springfield MC Operator, good, bad or ugly and how it may relate to the Taurus PT1911 as that was my original choice for my first 1911 and have now, as I see it, have decided to upgrade my desires for my first 1911 to be the MC Operator. This "1st 1911" purchase will still be down the road a bit, so depending on how well I can control my jones for a 1911 will ultimately be the deciding factor on which one actually becomes my first 1911. But I do hope that I can hold out long enough to gather all of the funds needed for the MC Operator. I know that I would be happy with the PT1911 I just think that I will be happier, longer if I can manage to wait for the MCO.

[Palmguy]

Get the MC Op (over the Taurus). You won't be sorry.

[leeindy]

i used a wilson combat mag well on mine and blended it in real well then sodered it on for a perfect blend. im not a fan of thumb groove grips. what i do for carry and ipsc is skate tape on just the front strap.

[ichy_trigger]

Im not a fan of Taurus guns.