Can you help settle a debate? - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

HVAC-TEK · 03-28-2005, 07:16 PM

There is a debate on another forum about OC spray. Most of the people are talking about using the spray preemptively. Spraying someone before an attack. One member of the forum relays a story about spraying a threatening person who had gotten out of his vehicle and began screaming at him.

I thought that by using the mace first, you struck the first blow and could have easily been charged with battery, in addition to escalating the situation into a shooting. (If things worsened and you had to fire.) (It’s a CCW forum)

I’m no LEO, but spraying a guy who has not attacked you looks like battery to me. I would think you risk jail.

So, how’s my logic? Can OC spray be used preemptively?

Thanks

KIM

TITAN · 03-28-2005, 07:34 PM

It is not preemptive if the person that did the spraying is in fear for his safety or life. You always have a right to defend yourself. If the agressor made approach with actual force or the implication of force, then in my opinion he had a right to do so. Now the secret to this is to be able to articulate it in a manner that would lead a "reasonable person to beleive," that you were in fear.

Truth is that if there is no physical assault other than the pepper spray, then I am going to take a report on that one and let the D.A. decide.

MrTuffPaws · 03-28-2005, 08:55 PM

The law states that you have to be in reasonable fear of your life to use deadly force, or at least here in CA. I am certain that if you used OC with just some guy yelling at you, you would be arrested for assault.

pd40 · 03-28-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTuffPaws

The law states that you have to be in reasonable fear of your life to use deadly force, or at least here in CA. I am certain that if you used OC with just some guy yelling at you, you would be arrested for assault.

I sure hope you arent considering OC deadly force.. and you dont have to fear for your life to deploy OC spray.. If someone got out of their vehicle charged towards me, yelling at me I can MORE than justify using OC.. would it be my first choice? probably not.. but I could justify using it.

MrTuffPaws · 03-29-2005, 12:07 AM

Quote:

I sure hope you arent considering OC deadly force.. and you dont have to fear for your life to deploy OC spray.. If someone got out of their vehicle charged towards me, yelling at me I can MORE than justify using OC.. would it be my first choice? probably not.. but I could justify using it.

Well, maybe you can, but twelve others or a judge has too to. You have to be attacked or in fear of being attacked to use force. As I said, I doubt the situation would warrent OC, and you would be charged with assualt IMO.

SLCDave · 03-29-2005, 08:32 AM

edited to remove my comments, since I'm not a LEO, and my opinion doesn't count

HVAC-TEK · 03-29-2005, 09:15 PM

The problem is that there are plenty of people talking about spraying in response to a threat. No one but TITAN has responded with "What the law says."

No offense, But I don’t care what you think if you aren’t a LEO. I am hearing opinions on the other forum from average people who seem to think of OC spray as a "Magic bullet” These people are acting as if mace is a free ticket out of trouble. Just spray, walk away and get back to grocery shopping. It just doesn’t look like a realistic view of how our laws work.

In Florida, if someone gives me a dirty look, or gets mouthy, I can’t just start hitting him in the face with a stick. So why would it be ok to spray him in the face with mace?

Battery is battery. (Or that was my thought. But that’s why im here in the LEO forum, asking LEO's)

KIM

omegaic · 03-29-2005, 11:55 PM

Not sure about anywhere else, but in NJ OC is considered mechanical force. According to the good old rainbow chart they make you learn, mechanical force can be used if a person is actively resisting a lawful order by a LEO. Open-hand control techniques (wrist locks, etc...) come before OC or baton.

Legally a LEO in NJ is allowed to use the level of force that is directly above the level of force a person is using against them, given the totality of the circumstances of course. You can't just spray someone because they are yelling at you. However, if they charge you with balled up fists saying that they are going to hurt you, you have every right to spray them. Just make sure you can articulate that to the judge.

It all comes down to common sense really, does it make sense to spray someone with OC who is yelling at you? No. Does it make sense to spray someone who is trying to punch you in the face? Yes.

MoJo · 03-30-2005, 06:21 AM

Every State's laws differ on this issue. The best thing to do is talk to a local LEO or Lawyer and determine what YOUR laws say.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I an LEO and have never played one on TV and stayed in my own house last night so, YMMV.

one-eyed-fatman · 03-30-2005, 07:55 AM

YMMV.... Something about your momma, right?

03-28-2005, 07:16 PM	#1
HVAC-TEK XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Orlando Florida Posts: 165	Can you help settle a debate? There is a debate on another forum about OC spray. Most of the people are talking about using the spray preemptively. Spraying someone before an attack. One member of the forum relays a story about spraying a threatening person who had gotten out of his vehicle and began screaming at him. I thought that by using the mace first, you struck the first blow and could have easily been charged with battery, in addition to escalating the situation into a shooting. (If things worsened and you had to fire.) (It’s a CCW forum) I’m no LEO, but spraying a guy who has not attacked you looks like battery to me. I would think you risk jail. So, how’s my logic? Can OC spray be used preemptively? Thanks KIM

03-28-2005, 07:34 PM	#2
TITAN XDTalk Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 47	It is not preemptive if the person that did the spraying is in fear for his safety or life. You always have a right to defend yourself. If the agressor made approach with actual force or the implication of force, then in my opinion he had a right to do so. Now the secret to this is to be able to articulate it in a manner that would lead a "reasonable person to beleive," that you were in fear. Truth is that if there is no physical assault other than the pepper spray, then I am going to take a report on that one and let the D.A. decide. __________________ \"Nothing is as strong as the heart of a volunteer\" - Col. James Doolittle \"I will either bring justice to you, or you to justice.\" - Anonymous

03-29-2005, 08:32 AM	#6
SLCDave XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 1,980	Re: Can you help settle a debate? edited to remove my comments, since I'm not a LEO, and my opinion doesn't count __________________ We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate. Thomas Jefferson Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

03-29-2005, 11:55 PM	#8
omegaic XDTalk Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 94	Not sure about anywhere else, but in NJ OC is considered mechanical force. According to the good old rainbow chart they make you learn, mechanical force can be used if a person is actively resisting a lawful order by a LEO. Open-hand control techniques (wrist locks, etc...) come before OC or baton. Legally a LEO in NJ is allowed to use the level of force that is directly above the level of force a person is using against them, given the totality of the circumstances of course. You can't just spray someone because they are yelling at you. However, if they charge you with balled up fists saying that they are going to hurt you, you have every right to spray them. Just make sure you can articulate that to the judge. It all comes down to common sense really, does it make sense to spray someone with OC who is yelling at you? No. Does it make sense to spray someone who is trying to punch you in the face? Yes. __________________ XD40 Service S&W 620 Marlin 882S

03-30-2005, 06:21 AM	#9
MoJo XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA Posts: 314	Every State's laws differ on this issue. The best thing to do is talk to a local LEO or Lawyer and determine what YOUR laws say. I am not a lawyer, nor am I an LEO and have never played one on TV and stayed in my own house last night so, YMMV. __________________ \"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.\" -Achille Marozzo, 1536 The only gunfight you can truly win is the one you avoid. -Anon.

03-28-2005, 08:55 PM	#3
MrTuffPaws XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: NorCal Posts: 759	The law states that you have to be in reasonable fear of your life to use deadly force, or at least here in CA. I am certain that if you used OC with just some guy yelling at you, you would be arrested for assault.

03-29-2005, 09:15 PM	#7
HVAC-TEK XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Orlando Florida Posts: 165	The problem is that there are plenty of people talking about spraying in response to a threat. No one but TITAN has responded with "What the law says." No offense, But I don’t care what you think if you aren’t a LEO. I am hearing opinions on the other forum from average people who seem to think of OC spray as a "Magic bullet” These people are acting as if mace is a free ticket out of trouble. Just spray, walk away and get back to grocery shopping. It just doesn’t look like a realistic view of how our laws work. In Florida, if someone gives me a dirty look, or gets mouthy, I can’t just start hitting him in the face with a stick. So why would it be ok to spray him in the face with mace? Battery is battery. (Or that was my thought. But that’s why im here in the LEO forum, asking LEO's) KIM

03-30-2005, 07:55 AM	#10
one-eyed-fatman XDTalk 10K Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,537	YMMV.... Something about your momma, right? __________________ "I’d rather be riding my motorcycle thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about my motorcycle." http://home.houston.rr.com/gunpics/images/one%20eye.wav This link no longer works due to a corporate buyout.

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