Can I ask .........all LEO's here - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

LandTrain · 01-09-2007, 05:56 AM

Hi,

I would like to ask if any of you have seen this story already.

It has changed since it was originally reported.

The original story said it was truck driver. That he was throwing musical instruments out of the truck. That he was hit with the taser more than twice. That he violently resisted. No weapons possession of any kind mentioned. Died later.

Now, you can see the updated story. It has changed.

Would you please post your thoughts on this. ALL thoughts.

I am only looking for LEO responses, no offense meant to anyone.

Thanks.

Here is the link:

http://www.wsmv.com/news/10690533/detail.html

dualcert · 01-09-2007, 06:12 AM

IF he was handcuffed in the back of a patrol unit at the time, no need for a Taser. IF he was combative prior to being placed in restraints, then yes the use of force matrix says use less than lethal, i.e. Taser.

I've had a number of combative folks in restraints in the back of a patrol car, kicking and screaming. Get another officer or two, use a rip hobble and be done. I have yet to see a person who is handcuffed properly be more than 2 well trained cops can handle. These statements are my opinion.

GSPD604 · 01-09-2007, 07:39 AM

I have to agree that there was no need for a taser if the person was already handcuffed. Our department policy on taser's actually states that they will not be used against someone who is already handcuffed. I agree with dualcert that two or more officers should have been able to place leg restraints on the suspect. This is my opinion just based on the story though. One thing I hate to do is arm chair quarterback other officers because its hard to know how you would react in a situation until you are there. And like most stories involving tasers in the media, I suspect all of the facts in this case are not covered in that story.

**hacker15** · 01-09-2007, 08:00 AM

Not sure there's enough info here to give you informed input. I know, from personal expereince, that the use of a Taser usually isn't warrented once the subject is under restraint, as he seemed to be. Now, if he was busy trying to kick out the back window of the patrol car, both LEOs on site may have been able to apply additional restraints (hobble, leg irons, whatever they had on hand), but since I wasn't there and all I have to go on is the press reports (usually not very inclusive of details that would help you make a decision pro or con), I would have to reserve judgement on the use of the Taser.

That being said, I'm inclined to believe it just may have been unwarrented in this case.

MGD 45 · 01-09-2007, 08:33 AM

Well, I hate to second guess other LEO's actions normally, so I'll just relate a similar personal story. Whenever I've had someone in the back of my patrol car that was handcuffed, but still agressive and trying to kick the car windows, I just rolled them down as I transported them.

Having the window rolled down eliminates them being able to kick it out, and the suspect is almost always too big to ever be able to escape by going out the door windows. Besides, if he kicks the window and destroys it, then you add another charge onto his A&B sheet, and tell your supervisor...it's not like your responsible for the damage.

oddjob · 01-09-2007, 05:49 PM

Didn't have Tasers during my days on patrol (egads....I carried a revolver when I started!!). What the other posters here stated seems to make sense though. Once the suspect is cuffed no more sticks or Tasers, but that is covered by policy in most departments (or it should be). I have seen restrained prisoners kick an officer pretty hard though and sometimes we have to take action.

A friend of mine and his partner handcuffed a high school wrestling coach behind his back. The coach then proceeded to foot sweep, knock down and kick both of them to the point where my friend hit him with a PR-24 and broke a coller bone. Its tough to make a judgement without all the facts. My friend got 30 days off for that little fiasco.

LandTrain · 01-10-2007, 05:25 AM

Thanks for the replies.

I just wanted to see what other lawmen thought besides my opponents on this one.

I talked to a local Winston Salem cop. He walked in on my conversation with another while at a local indoor range.

I wanted his thoughts, since he was MUCH younger than me. In my day, if you got caught doing something that you were not supposed to be, you got your @$$ beat. PERIOD.

He agreed no need to TASER him, especially if he was already cuffed in the back seat.

Although we all seem to agree many important details were left out.

I just wish and thought more folks would respond from the LEO community.

Thanks again..............

XDinNC · 01-11-2007, 04:32 AM

LandTrain, where do you shoot since you're in the WS area? I usually shoot at GFTC, but since my brother bought some land it's cheaper to shoot there.

LandTrain · 01-11-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDinNC

LandTrain, where do you shoot since you're in the WS area? I usually shoot at GFTC, but since my brother bought some land it's cheaper to shoot there.

The WS officer and I were at Calibers. Owners are very nice.

You can go to their website:

http://calibers.net/

What is GFTC? Where is that?

XDinNC · 01-11-2007, 12:02 PM

Grandview Firearms Training Center http://www.gftc.com

It's in Pfafftown - on the other side of Winston from Calibers. It's not too crowded on Saturday mornings. I'm usually the only one there when I go.

01-09-2007, 05:56 AM	#1
LandTrain XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 253	Can I ask .........all LEO's here Hi, I would like to ask if any of you have seen this story already. It has changed since it was originally reported. The original story said it was truck driver. That he was throwing musical instruments out of the truck. That he was hit with the taser more than twice. That he violently resisted. No weapons possession of any kind mentioned. Died later. Now, you can see the updated story. It has changed. Would you please post your thoughts on this. ALL thoughts. I am only looking for LEO responses, no offense meant to anyone. Thanks. Here is the link: http://www.wsmv.com/news/10690533/detail.html

01-09-2007, 08:00 AM	#4
hacker15 XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 3,467	Not sure there's enough info here to give you informed input. I know, from personal expereince, that the use of a Taser usually isn't warrented once the subject is under restraint, as he seemed to be. Now, if he was busy trying to kick out the back window of the patrol car, both LEOs on site may have been able to apply additional restraints (hobble, leg irons, whatever they had on hand), but since I wasn't there and all I have to go on is the press reports (usually not very inclusive of details that would help you make a decision pro or con), I would have to reserve judgement on the use of the Taser. That being said, I'm inclined to believe it just may have been unwarrented in this case. __________________ If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. Mark Twain

01-09-2007, 08:33 AM	#5
MGD 45 XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Perry Posts: 1,216	Well, I hate to second guess other LEO's actions normally, so I'll just relate a similar personal story. Whenever I've had someone in the back of my patrol car that was handcuffed, but still agressive and trying to kick the car windows, I just rolled them down as I transported them. Having the window rolled down eliminates them being able to kick it out, and the suspect is almost always too big to ever be able to escape by going out the door windows. Besides, if he kicks the window and destroys it, then you add another charge onto his A&B sheet, and tell your supervisor...it's not like your responsible for the damage. __________________ " Don't sweat the small stuff...& it's all small stuff. "

01-10-2007, 05:25 AM	#7
LandTrain XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 253	Thanks Thanks for the replies. I just wanted to see what other lawmen thought besides my opponents on this one. I talked to a local Winston Salem cop. He walked in on my conversation with another while at a local indoor range. I wanted his thoughts, since he was MUCH younger than me. In my day, if you got caught doing something that you were not supposed to be, you got your @$$ beat. PERIOD. He agreed no need to TASER him, especially if he was already cuffed in the back seat. Although we all seem to agree many important details were left out. I just wish and thought more folks would respond from the LEO community. Thanks again..............

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01-09-2007, 06:12 AM	#2
dualcert XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 110	IF he was handcuffed in the back of a patrol unit at the time, no need for a Taser. IF he was combative prior to being placed in restraints, then yes the use of force matrix says use less than lethal, i.e. Taser. I've had a number of combative folks in restraints in the back of a patrol car, kicking and screaming. Get another officer or two, use a rip hobble and be done. I have yet to see a person who is handcuffed properly be more than 2 well trained cops can handle. These statements are my opinion.

01-09-2007, 07:39 AM	#3
GSPD604 XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16	I have to agree that there was no need for a taser if the person was already handcuffed. Our department policy on taser's actually states that they will not be used against someone who is already handcuffed. I agree with dualcert that two or more officers should have been able to place leg restraints on the suspect. This is my opinion just based on the story though. One thing I hate to do is arm chair quarterback other officers because its hard to know how you would react in a situation until you are there. And like most stories involving tasers in the media, I suspect all of the facts in this case are not covered in that story.

01-09-2007, 05:49 PM	#6
oddjob XDTalk Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Woodbridge, Ca Posts: 86	Didn't have Tasers during my days on patrol (egads....I carried a revolver when I started!!). What the other posters here stated seems to make sense though. Once the suspect is cuffed no more sticks or Tasers, but that is covered by policy in most departments (or it should be). I have seen restrained prisoners kick an officer pretty hard though and sometimes we have to take action. A friend of mine and his partner handcuffed a high school wrestling coach behind his back. The coach then proceeded to foot sweep, knock down and kick both of them to the point where my friend hit him with a PR-24 and broke a coller bone. Its tough to make a judgement without all the facts. My friend got 30 days off for that little fiasco.

01-11-2007, 04:32 AM	#8
XDinNC XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,120	LandTrain, where do you shoot since you're in the WS area? I usually shoot at GFTC, but since my brother bought some land it's cheaper to shoot there.

01-11-2007, 12:02 PM	#10
XDinNC XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,120	Grandview Firearms Training Center http://www.gftc.com It's in Pfafftown - on the other side of Winston from Calibers. It's not too crowded on Saturday mornings. I'm usually the only one there when I go.