Question for LEO's about gang-style beating - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

paper tiger · 02-09-2005, 11:56 PM

Just wondering how this situation would be handled, not necessarily with a CCW.

From what I understand, a guy was walking around the front of a Chipotle burrito joint when 8 guys attacked him, beating him for 5 minutes. During the attack no one went to help keep this guy from possibly getting killed.

How should we as everyday citizens approach this? We can't just let this happen...whether he may have deserved it or not.

brandon14295 · 02-10-2005, 12:27 AM

start yelling "la migra!, la migra!"

Delija · 02-10-2005, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paper tiger

How should we as everyday citizens approach this? We can't just let this happen...whether he may have deserved it or not.

I think this is one of the better questions posed here.

I only know the law in Florida.

It is a lose/lose proposition. No matter what you do, if you interfere, you are in big trouble.

If you don't interfere, you have to live with yourself knowing you could have possibly prevented a death.

Having said this, it is one of the very few examples of a situation that a CCW permit holder (with a gun) could be justified in using the gun in Florida...stopping "great physical harm or death" to a third party.

To me, this is where the law and common sense don't come together. Here's a perfect example in which the threat of a gun could possibly stop the beating. But by Florida law, as a civilian, you cannot use the threat of a gun. Once you show the gun, you are supposed to start shooting....shooting to kill.

So do you do that? Not me. Certainly if a cop were to show up, he'd use the threat of the gun before he started to shoot. Why an armed citizen can't do the same I can't understand.

I believe (not sure) that in other states the law is more flexible, and the threat of a gun can be used (legally).

Hope to never have to make the call. Personally, I think I would take my chances with a judge and jury and just testify that I felt NOT shooting was adequate (which hopefully it would be). Hard to imagine being convicted of NOT SHOOTING if you didn't have to.

Peace,
D.

paper tiger · 02-10-2005, 01:16 AM

Brandon, you realize it took me several spanish/english translation dictionary searches and one on Google before I figured out what the hell la migra means?

I may just have to use that around my area.

dolanp · 02-10-2005, 07:37 AM

LOL. It works best in Southern states.

cheapo · 02-10-2005, 11:16 AM

If it were me, a mere citizen, and it was 8 on 1 and I was the one, no doubt, I would start shooting if I were taking a beating. The 8 wouldn't have to even be armed for it to be a 'good' shooting. My life is on the line when it is 8 on 1.
Now, if I walked upon this situation where I wasn't the one being beat'en but see 8 guys beating on 1, and not knowing the situation at all, it is a 911 call even if I am armed. (Then I would check for options to try and defuse the situation, or hang tight and gather as much information as I can till help arrives)

USN RM3 · 02-10-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paper tiger

Just wondering how this situation would be handled, not necessarily with a CCW.

From what I understand, a guy was walking around the front of a Chipotle burrito joint when 8 guys attacked him, beating him for 5 minutes. During the attack no one went to help keep this guy from possibly getting killed.

How should we as everyday citizens approach this? We can't just let this happen...whether he may have deserved it or not.

Well, as a LEO I will try to answer your question....I will say this up front I think there is two parts to the answer on this....

1. call 9-1-1 NOW! he is going to need a ambulance also, just as much as a gun...So don't delay call...give the information to the dispatcher...so the officers repsonding will get up to date info during the response...

2. There are so many variables that come into play...Wow.....
I will say, I would intervene as much as I could...If I am unarmed...who knows....no one wants to see anyone get hurt....

These questions are loaded hypothetical's...and I am sure another LEO here would have some other responses also...

Tom

1of2 · 02-10-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delija

I think this is one of the better questions posed here.

I only know the law in Florida.

It is a lose/lose proposition. No matter what you do, if you interfere, you are in big trouble.

If you don't interfere, you have to live with yourself knowing you could have possibly prevented a death.

Having said this, it is one of the very few examples of a situation that a CCW permit holder (with a gun) could be justified in using the gun in Florida...stopping "great physical harm or death" to a third party.

To me, this is where the law and common sense don't come together. Here's a perfect example in which the threat of a gun could possibly stop the beating. But by Florida law, as a civilian, you cannot use the threat of a gun. Once you show the gun, you are supposed to start shooting....shooting to kill.

So do you do that? Not me. Certainly if a cop were to show up, he'd use the threat of the gun before he started to shoot. Why an armed citizen can't do the same I can't understand.

I believe (not sure) that in other states the law is more flexible, and the threat of a gun can be used (legally).

Hope to never have to make the call. Personally, I think I would take my chances with a judge and jury and just testify that I felt NOT shooting was adequate (which hopefully it would be). Hard to imagine being convicted of NOT SHOOTING if you didn't have to.

Peace,
D.

There are a couple things that need to be ironed out of the FLA laws and not being able to show your gun without firing it has got to be the weirdest. At least we are able to carry there and for that I am thankfull.

I think what I would do is to call 911 from a safe distance and let them know that I did and the police are on the way. If they decided to come beat me too I would draw and warn them. Hopefully they would go away once they knew the cops were called.

Verm · 02-10-2005, 11:34 PM

I agree with Tom, there are so many variables in a situation like this.
Definately call 911 as quick as possible, But if it's a situation where the person's life is in immediate threat, then you have the right to use lethal force to protect both yours and other peoples lives. Would taking the time to call 911 risk the person's life?

These are tough because you are asking people that have years and years of training and experience to intervene and protect others about how they would react in a civilian scenario.

packing_in_la · 02-11-2005, 10:21 PM

This site may have something to help.
Link

Seriously tho, its a matter of faith at some points, because you may be taking your life into your own hands. You will definitly have 8 people looking for you after that. LEts lay down the options:

1. Call 911, like Tom said one way or the other you will need emt's plus many LEO's.

2. If you brandish your firearem, they may stop, then run, or run after you.
Results are good, ok, and very bad...

3. You open fire, killing or maiming several of the BG's and they stop. You will now be a gang target and sued many times over.
Results are bad, and bad.

4. You shoot and hit an innocent or no one. They either run, attack you, or stop. Results Bad, ok, bad, or ok.

It looks like a coin flip to me. You might do more good with a camera than a gun. Better chance of id'ing all of the BG's.

stay safe.

02-09-2005, 11:56 PM	#1
paper tiger XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 109	Question for LEO's about gang-style beating Just wondering how this situation would be handled, not necessarily with a CCW. From what I understand, a guy was walking around the front of a Chipotle burrito joint when 8 guys attacked him, beating him for 5 minutes. During the attack no one went to help keep this guy from possibly getting killed. How should we as everyday citizens approach this? We can't just let this happen...whether he may have deserved it or not.

02-10-2005, 11:34 PM	#9
Verm XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Carson City NV. Posts: 814	I agree with Tom, there are so many variables in a situation like this. Definately call 911 as quick as possible, But if it's a situation where the person's life is in immediate threat, then you have the right to use lethal force to protect both yours and other peoples lives. Would taking the time to call 911 risk the person's life? These are tough because you are asking people that have years and years of training and experience to intervene and protect others about how they would react in a civilian scenario. __________________ Enough firepower, the will and the guts to use it all.

02-11-2005, 10:21 PM	#10
packing_in_la XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 453	Here... This site may have something to help. Link Seriously tho, its a matter of faith at some points, because you may be taking your life into your own hands. You will definitly have 8 people looking for you after that. LEts lay down the options: 1. Call 911, like Tom said one way or the other you will need emt's plus many LEO's. 2. If you brandish your firearem, they may stop, then run, or run after you. Results are good, ok, and very bad... 3. You open fire, killing or maiming several of the BG's and they stop. You will now be a gang target and sued many times over. Results are bad, and bad. 4. You shoot and hit an innocent or no one. They either run, attack you, or stop. Results Bad, ok, bad, or ok. It looks like a coin flip to me. You might do more good with a camera than a gun. Better chance of id'ing all of the BG's. stay safe.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-10-2005, 12:27 AM	#2
brandon14295 XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: amarillo, tx Posts: 169	start yelling "la migra!, la migra!"

02-10-2005, 01:16 AM	#4
paper tiger XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 109	Brandon, you realize it took me several spanish/english translation dictionary searches and one on Google before I figured out what the hell la migra means? I may just have to use that around my area.

02-10-2005, 07:37 AM	#5
dolanp XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: N TX Posts: 784	LOL. It works best in Southern states.

02-10-2005, 11:16 AM	#6
cheapo XDTalk Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Denver Posts: 95	If it were me, a mere citizen, and it was 8 on 1 and I was the one, no doubt, I would start shooting if I were taking a beating. The 8 wouldn't have to even be armed for it to be a 'good' shooting. My life is on the line when it is 8 on 1. Now, if I walked upon this situation where I wasn't the one being beat'en but see 8 guys beating on 1, and not knowing the situation at all, it is a 911 call even if I am armed. (Then I would check for options to try and defuse the situation, or hang tight and gather as much information as I can till help arrives)