Mushrooming - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Bree · 08-09-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tengu

JHP's have to enter a more liquid medium than dirt in order to expand as designed.

I think that the comment above is technically incorrect. The expansion of JHP's depends on the bullet's design and there are many JHP designs. There are JHP's designed to expand reliably when impact is with hard substances. FBI protocol tests are designed to examine a rounds ability to expand and penetrate under a wide variety of circumstances. Here are some sample results from a well-designed JHP round... the Federal LE HST.

http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20C...20Workshop.pdf

Note the excellent expansion in non-liquid environments. It is probably true that the liquid environment is the optimal environment for a JHP but it is not the only environment where the round performs well. It all depends on how the round was designed and manufactured.

Clobbersaurus · 08-09-2007, 01:43 PM

Another fourm had a discussion on this. Someone also posted pics if them mushroomed.

http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=44851

Clobber

zac07 · 08-09-2007, 01:50 PM

If the hollow point gets plugged then it might as well be a fmj, there has been many tests of hollow points getting plugged with drywall, clothing and other materials that kept the bullet from mushrooming. The dirt may of plugged up the bullet and kept it from expanding.

Bree · 08-09-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zac07

If the hollow point gets plugged then it might as well be a fmj, there has been many tests of hollow points getting plugged with drywall, clothing and other materials that kept the bullet from mushrooming. The dirt may of plugged up the bullet and kept it from expanding.

True for many but not all JHP's. They are not all the same. Internal scoring, for example, may create planes of weakness that can cause the petals to unfold in circumstances where you might expect clogging and no expansion. You can't generalize about JHP's. You have to test them under different circumstances to see how they hold up and respond.

zac07 · 08-09-2007, 02:54 PM

For a fmj to expand to its full potiantal it needs to be shot into a liquid/flesh media. Even with the internal scoring the bullet will open but it will not roll around like it was intially designed to do in liquid/flesh. So while some will open in hard surfaces, IMO it doesnt matter. I dont care how much the bullet expands in dirt because I will never use my gun in self defense against the dirt, if a fmj out of my gun hits the dirt it means I missed.

The Tengu · 08-09-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bree

I think that the comment above is technically incorrect. The expansion of JHP's depends on the bullet's design and there are many JHP designs. There are JHP's designed to expand reliably when impact is with hard substances. FBI protocol tests are designed to examine a rounds ability to expand and penetrate under a wide variety of circumstances. Here are some sample results from a well-designed JHP round... the Federal LE HST.

http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20C...20Workshop.pdf

Note the excellent expansion in non-liquid environments. It is probably true that the liquid environment is the optimal environment for a JHP but it is not the only environment where the round performs well. It all depends on how the round was designed and manufactured.

You are correct that they test the JHP's against various "solid" objects, but they all end up in gelatin.

The tests are through a barrier and then into gelatin.

The expansion tests are designed to see if they will expand in a human body after passing through a solid object.

As for a cheap .40 JHP that expands better than the Winchester WWB JHP, the Remington "green box" JHP's that you can buy at Wal-Mart have more dependable expansion and are not that much more expensive.

Bree · 08-10-2007, 04:28 AM

There are lots of choices with JHPs. You have to look at what you likely targets will be and what needs to be penetrated in order to determine which JHPs will give you the best chance for success. My point is simple. There are a number of JHPs that will reliably expand passing through substances other than liquid. They will do so because of their individual design characteristics. So shop around and test.

You are right. The ultimate goal is to get the round into a liquid body and the JHP is right at home in that environment.

GlockConvert · 08-10-2007, 07:21 AM

Unless you are going to a clamation death match, peformance on clay should not interest you in the slightest. Its what the "smart metal" or blended metal" scammers use to make people thing that their bullets are super wonderful. In their case, it looks impressive because clay does not expand or stretch.

That said, WWB hollowpoints are not even in the top several defensive loads. There are many quality rounds out there that are reasonably affordable. I use Winchester Ranger ammo in my carry gun, but the Federal mentioned above is good, so are gold dots... . I use Winchester because its what the local police use, it is accurate in my gun, it has small muzzle flash in the dark, and most importantly has been stone reliable. I'll be getting some DPX to try out soon, but you can't go wrong with Winchester Ranger.

Kurt D · 08-11-2007, 08:42 PM

Basically those WWB hollow points are little more than a WWB FMJ with a hole drilled into the tip. They are the worst choice for JHP defense ammo. You'd be luckly if they expand at all if shot through clothing.

You should care less how they expand in dirt, and rather more on how they do in something more flesh like. Water jugs, soaked newspaper, home made gel, etc covered with fabric will give you an idea of how they will really perform. NO this is not perfect but it's the best we can usually do without a lot of $$$.

That said, I carry Winchester Rangers, either RA40T for 180gr .40 or RA45T for 230gr .45. The "T" in the product code is for the T series bullets, the next generation "Talons". These loads pass the FBI standards and are used by many LEOs. Ranger products with the SXT code are not the same and supposedly not as good.

I bring them up because I've found the .40 S&W for $21 and the .45 ACP for $23 for a box of 50. That's only a few dollars more than WWB and they work 10X better. Another plus is for that price you get 50 rounds in a box instead of 25 like the Gold Dots and Hydrashocks.

Archael · 08-12-2007, 01:20 PM

Obviously this guy isn't thinking of defending himself against clay. His question was simple..why did the 9's expand and the 40's not. I'm a .45 guy and don't know about the differences between the 9 or 40 but i'd say the only difference would be velocity. The 9's were of a lighter bullet and would be going faster correct? Just like body armor the clay applied a more solid force against them than the slower moving 40's which just slid on through without expansion.

As far as Hydrashocks are concerned...I got expansion out of shooting plastic and DO NOT intend to depend on them for my protection...when shooting plastic i don't expect expansion. They were old so perhaps a new box should be tested before the brand is discounted but still...i was very dissappointed.

08-09-2007, 01:43 PM	#12
Clobbersaurus XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Orange County, NY Posts: 277	Another fourm had a discussion on this. Someone also posted pics if them mushroomed. http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=44851 Clobber __________________ Springfield XD40 Serivce Springfield 1911-A1 Loaded Black Stainless Colt Python 6" Mossberg 590 Mariner w/ Knoxx SpecOps Stock Ruger 10/22 w/ Christie Super Stock Romanian AK-47 Noveske N4 Light Low Profile Carbine

08-10-2007, 04:28 AM	#17
Bree XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 3,361 Blog Entries: 5	There are lots of choices with JHPs. You have to look at what you likely targets will be and what needs to be penetrated in order to determine which JHPs will give you the best chance for success. My point is simple. There are a number of JHPs that will reliably expand passing through substances other than liquid. They will do so because of their individual design characteristics. So shop around and test. You are right. The ultimate goal is to get the round into a liquid body and the JHP is right at home in that environment. __________________ Shoot Straight and Ride Safe! Bree XD .45 Compact -- Ruger SP-101 .357 Mag. -- Keltec P3AT .380 Rock River Arms 20" Varmint A4 AR-15 w/4-16x56mm MilDot Ruger 10/22 Black Stainless Mossberg 590 Mariner 12 Ga w/Knoxx SpecOps Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide Patriot Guard Rider Iron Butt Association Member The 60's Can't Die As Long As I Won't Leave Them!! I grant President-Elect Obama a free ride from criticism by me until 5/1/09. Always give a person a chance to do the right thing!

08-10-2007, 07:21 AM	#18
GlockConvert XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: PAC NW Posts: 418	Unless you are going to a clamation death match, peformance on clay should not interest you in the slightest. Its what the "smart metal" or blended metal" scammers use to make people thing that their bullets are super wonderful. In their case, it looks impressive because clay does not expand or stretch. That said, WWB hollowpoints are not even in the top several defensive loads. There are many quality rounds out there that are reasonably affordable. I use Winchester Ranger ammo in my carry gun, but the Federal mentioned above is good, so are gold dots... . I use Winchester because its what the local police use, it is accurate in my gun, it has small muzzle flash in the dark, and most importantly has been stone reliable. I'll be getting some DPX to try out soon, but you can't go wrong with Winchester Ranger. __________________ Damien in Seattle I don't list my guns - I know glocks, FALs, and AKs but I'm not sure my ability to fill a gunsafe with guns make me an expert on anything. All that you can depend on from a 45 is that it will drill a .45 - .70 inch hole about 14 inches into someone. There will not be "energy dump", people will not fly backwards, and they will not necessarily fall as if they have been struck by lighting.

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08-09-2007, 01:50 PM	#13
zac07 XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: West Texas Posts: 1,119	If the hollow point gets plugged then it might as well be a fmj, there has been many tests of hollow points getting plugged with drywall, clothing and other materials that kept the bullet from mushrooming. The dirt may of plugged up the bullet and kept it from expanding.

08-09-2007, 02:54 PM	#15
zac07 XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: West Texas Posts: 1,119	For a fmj to expand to its full potiantal it needs to be shot into a liquid/flesh media. Even with the internal scoring the bullet will open but it will not roll around like it was intially designed to do in liquid/flesh. So while some will open in hard surfaces, IMO it doesnt matter. I dont care how much the bullet expands in dirt because I will never use my gun in self defense against the dirt, if a fmj out of my gun hits the dirt it means I missed.

08-11-2007, 08:42 PM	#19
Kurt D XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: LA Posts: 13	Basically those WWB hollow points are little more than a WWB FMJ with a hole drilled into the tip. They are the worst choice for JHP defense ammo. You'd be luckly if they expand at all if shot through clothing. You should care less how they expand in dirt, and rather more on how they do in something more flesh like. Water jugs, soaked newspaper, home made gel, etc covered with fabric will give you an idea of how they will really perform. NO this is not perfect but it's the best we can usually do without a lot of $$$. That said, I carry Winchester Rangers, either RA40T for 180gr .40 or RA45T for 230gr .45. The "T" in the product code is for the T series bullets, the next generation "Talons". These loads pass the FBI standards and are used by many LEOs. Ranger products with the SXT code are not the same and supposedly not as good. I bring them up because I've found the .40 S&W for $21 and the .45 ACP for $23 for a box of 50. That's only a few dollars more than WWB and they work 10X better. Another plus is for that price you get 50 rounds in a box instead of 25 like the Gold Dots and Hydrashocks.

08-12-2007, 01:20 PM	#20
Archael XDTalk Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 51	Obviously this guy isn't thinking of defending himself against clay. His question was simple..why did the 9's expand and the 40's not. I'm a .45 guy and don't know about the differences between the 9 or 40 but i'd say the only difference would be velocity. The 9's were of a lighter bullet and would be going faster correct? Just like body armor the clay applied a more solid force against them than the slower moving 40's which just slid on through without expansion. As far as Hydrashocks are concerned...I got expansion out of shooting plastic and DO NOT intend to depend on them for my protection...when shooting plastic i don't expect expansion. They were old so perhaps a new box should be tested before the brand is discounted but still...i was very dissappointed.