New Sights Designed for the XD coming soon... - Page 5 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

kraigster414 · 10-30-2006, 11:52 AM

Oy veh. Hurry up and make the da--n things.

I need 'em!

**Loves2Shoot** · 10-30-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leibster

Another reason for this may be the fact that it takes the eyes of even a young fit shooter about three quarters of a second to shift focal lengths, as from the front sight to the target.
--Leibster

???

How do you get that? Surely can't mean .75 seconds (can you) to switch focus?

The reason I ask is that I've trained many people who can shoot one target, look at the spot on the next target they want to shoot and then switch to a perfect front sight picture and shoot that spot in .3 seconds at 10 yards. At 3-5 yards it is .20-.25 seconds. Switching focus in focal plane by all accounts I've ever heard is in the hundredths of seconds, not high tenths.

Leibster · 10-30-2006, 12:08 PM

Old School and Kraigster414,

The sights are constructed from 4140 steel, which is an extremely hard, durable steel. They have been finished with an attractive matte black phosphate finish.

On top of the phosphate finish, they have been treated with Black-T. Black-T is one of the most rust resistant and durable metal finishes available. This finish will give the sights an even deeper black appearance, and add to their durability.

Right now, the sights are being shipped back to me after having the BlackT finish applied, and as soon as they arrive, we will begin the process of coating them with our proprietary yellow coating.

The polymer coating we are using was developed specifically for SureSight. It is designed to be extremely durable, solvent-resistant and scratch resistant. In addition to being extremely bright and naturally visible under most light conditions, this coating will actually glow when charged with light. A short burst with a bright flashlight like a SureFire can yield as much as an hour of usable light.

After the sights have been coated, they'll be packaged and
ready for your purchase. We expect all this to be completed in just several more weeks.

If you'd like to get updates emailed to you, and a chance to buy these sights before they're available to the general public, sign up HERE . Once you sign up and confirm your email, you'll be "in the loop" with any production updates and other news.

All the best,

--Leibster

Leibster · 10-30-2006, 12:15 PM

Loves2Shoot,

While most any text book on the subject will confirm that it takes approximately .75 seconds to shift focal lengths, there is growing evidence that someone who is highly habituated to a particular object may clearly "see" an object without being entirely focused upon it. I believe an important factor in this type of "seeing" is a very high degree of familiarity with how something looks. From what I've read, under such conditions, it is believed that the brain can fill in the missing or blurry data.

This would explain how shooters who are more highly trained than average are capable of such feats. (Whether or not these feats are replicatable under the stress of a gunfight seem to be highly individual--some function as they do in training, while many others are incapable of this under stress.)

Hope that helps,

-Leibster

Flexmoney · 10-31-2006, 06:33 PM

Leibster,

This is by no means a comment on your sights in any way...

...but, the idea of 0.75 seconds to shift focus is waaaay off base in my experience.

Leibster · 10-31-2006, 07:38 PM

Flexmoney,
Your experience seems to be at odds with both Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology--a common medical text--and Dr. Irving Biederman, a professor at the University of Southern California. He is the father of "Geon Theory", and largely considered the world's leading authority on visual shape and object recognition. If memory serves, I first read the .75 seconds figure in a text that quoted from Guyton's, then confirmed it verbally with Dr. Biederman.

See my previous post for a plausible explanation as to why you may feel that you were able to "focus" more quickly than this.

Hope that helps clear things up.

--Leibster

**Old School** · 10-31-2006, 07:43 PM

I cannot wait for these to hit the market. Nice work, Leibster!

Flexmoney · 11-01-2006, 11:53 AM

Leibster,

I had read your previous post and it's "plausible explanation". I appreciate the information that you have been given, which you've accepted as fact. But, the numbers just don't hold up.

There is some truth to your previous post which would allow your explanation to have an open ended degree of plausibility, but it just isn't fact (in our regards). Yes, to some extent, our senses can give us faulty input...even our vision. The brain's influence is powerful. But...

I count on my vision as the primary source of feedback when I am shooting. I'm...pretty familiar with it.

1. Either your sources for the 0.75 seconds for focal shift are completely wrong, in our regard...or...

2. It just doesn't matter with regards to pistol shooting. Plausible explanation being that the eye gathers just enough information when switching focus to the sights that it can tell us...in a flash...the relationship/alignment of the sights. (So, who cares if it fills in the background info.)

Perhaps it might be best to explain what top shooters see when they are shooting (well, what I see, I won't speak for others)...

- With iron sights, my visual focus snaps to find what I term the target spot. This isn't just the target, it is the actual spot on the target that I want the gun to go to when it catches up to my eyes...when it comes on target.

- As the gun catches up and comes on target (which I see in my peripheral) my visual focus shifts back to the front sight...with razor sharp clarity.

- The time that it takes for the vision to shift from finding the target spot...back to the front sight (in razor sharp clarity) is about the same amount of time that it takes the gun to get there and get stopped on the target spot. And, I am not talking about transitioning the gun over to the target in a lazy manner...I am talking about driving the gun onto the target as if you were shooting against the Gods.

What I practice in dry-fire (and what I think all standard sighted shooters should practice) is this shift of the focus. I pick out various things in the house to use as targets. These various targets should be a mix of near, far, high, low, big, small....etc. What I practice is to always keep my vision (visual focus) moving. I like to think of it (my visual focus) like a slide trombone. On the trombone, the musician always seems to have that slide in motion...in and out, back and forth. That is what my vision is doing. I call the shot (see the front sight in razor sharp focus), snap my vision to find the next target spot, as the gun comes in I bring my vision back to the front sight..again in razor sharp focus. When I am done with that target, my eyes snap to the next target, the vision comes back to the front sight...then the next...and the next.

None of this vision shifting takes 0.75 seconds (or anywhere near that). My vision is far faster then my ability to move the gun.

Leibster, I don't think you are going to convince any top shooter of the 0.75s focus shift claim. We all know our shooting a bit better than that. We know how long it takes to do X, Y, and Z. For instance, at 10y in dry-fire (where I can't use the guns recoil to cheat myself), I can go from the body to the head in less than 0.20s (top-speed ~0.15s). And, yes my vision shifts from the front sight (gun on the body)...to the head...and back to the front sight (gun on the head) in that time.

I find your claim of 0.75s for a focus shift on pistol sights to be...well, ludicrous.

Your sights may be fine. I can't comment on those. I've never tried them. I do like a large front sight, as they are easier to see. But that can be a trade off at distance. And, I sometimes will shoot with my front sight sitting up and out of the notch on close stuff (I still use the rear sight, I kinda level it up with the front/top of the slide). I am, though, taking Loves2shoot's comments about your rear sight to heart. I know his skill set, so I would explore what he was saying if I were trying these sights.

And, you seem to be marketing them as a reference on the gun when using a target focus for shooting. That might be fine too.

My eyes are still good enough (37yrs and counting) that I don't find the need for a fiber optic front sight (which I've found easy enough to see that I tend to look past it and at the target...resulting is sloppy hits/misses for me at times).

Target focused shooters and shooters with less than optimal eye sights may benefit from your sights. It remains to be seen if they really provide the speed and precision needed for (practical) competition shooting at the highest levels.

Glxso201 · 11-01-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flexmoney

Target focused shooters and shooters with less than optimal eye sights may benefit from your sights. It remains to be seen if they really provide the speed and precision needed for (practical) competition shooting at the highest levels.

I'm pretty sure that Leibster designed it to improve speed and accuracy in a defensive situation, not for competitive shooting...someone correct me if I'm wrong

kraigster414 · 11-01-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glxso201

I'm pretty sure that Leibster designed it to improve speed and accuracy in a defensive situation, not for competitive shooting...someone correct me if I'm wrong

I think you are right and we are receiving more technical gobalygook that I ever wanted to read. I think the overall objective, correct if I am wrong, is to provide a sight that can be rapidly picked up in a worse case scenario - particularly beneficial to those whose eyes may not be as great as they once were - and is an improvement over conventional combat sights (tritium and non-tritium). How/why this topic drifted into competition, I am not sure. I am considering putting these on a Glock 27, hardly a target gun.

10-30-2006, 11:52 AM	#41
kraigster414 XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Upper Himalayas Posts: 1,447	Oy veh. Hurry up and make the da--n things. I need 'em! __________________ "Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." - George Burns

10-30-2006, 12:08 PM	#43
Leibster XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwestern US Posts: 250	Old School and Kraigster414, The sights are constructed from 4140 steel, which is an extremely hard, durable steel. They have been finished with an attractive matte black phosphate finish. On top of the phosphate finish, they have been treated with Black-T. Black-T is one of the most rust resistant and durable metal finishes available. This finish will give the sights an even deeper black appearance, and add to their durability. Right now, the sights are being shipped back to me after having the BlackT finish applied, and as soon as they arrive, we will begin the process of coating them with our proprietary yellow coating. The polymer coating we are using was developed specifically for SureSight. It is designed to be extremely durable, solvent-resistant and scratch resistant. In addition to being extremely bright and naturally visible under most light conditions, this coating will actually glow when charged with light. A short burst with a bright flashlight like a SureFire can yield as much as an hour of usable light. After the sights have been coated, they'll be packaged and ready for your purchase. We expect all this to be completed in just several more weeks. If you'd like to get updates emailed to you, and a chance to buy these sights before they're available to the general public, sign up HERE . Once you sign up and confirm your email, you'll be "in the loop" with any production updates and other news. All the best, --Leibster __________________ To Learn About The Fastest Acquisition Handgun Sights Visit http://www.suresight.com Or sign up for free news & updates HERE

10-30-2006, 12:15 PM	#44
Leibster XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwestern US Posts: 250	Loves2Shoot, While most any text book on the subject will confirm that it takes approximately .75 seconds to shift focal lengths, there is growing evidence that someone who is highly habituated to a particular object may clearly "see" an object without being entirely focused upon it. I believe an important factor in this type of "seeing" is a very high degree of familiarity with how something looks. From what I've read, under such conditions, it is believed that the brain can fill in the missing or blurry data. This would explain how shooters who are more highly trained than average are capable of such feats. (Whether or not these feats are replicatable under the stress of a gunfight seem to be highly individual--some function as they do in training, while many others are incapable of this under stress.) Hope that helps, -Leibster __________________ To Learn About The Fastest Acquisition Handgun Sights Visit http://www.suresight.com Or sign up for free news & updates HERE Last edited by Leibster; 10-30-2006 at 02:26 PM.

10-31-2006, 07:38 PM	#46
Leibster XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwestern US Posts: 250	Flexmoney, Your experience seems to be at odds with both Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology--a common medical text--and Dr. Irving Biederman, a professor at the University of Southern California. He is the father of "Geon Theory", and largely considered the world's leading authority on visual shape and object recognition. If memory serves, I first read the .75 seconds figure in a text that quoted from Guyton's, then confirmed it verbally with Dr. Biederman. See my previous post for a plausible explanation as to why you may feel that you were able to "focus" more quickly than this. Hope that helps clear things up. --Leibster __________________ To Learn About The Fastest Acquisition Handgun Sights Visit http://www.suresight.com Or sign up for free news & updates HERE Last edited by Leibster; 10-31-2006 at 08:23 PM.

10-31-2006, 07:43 PM	#47
Old School XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 7,776	I cannot wait for these to hit the market. Nice work, Leibster! __________________ Visit www.pistolgear.com for all of your XD needs!

10-31-2006, 06:33 PM	#45
Flexmoney XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 23	Leibster, This is by no means a comment on your sights in any way... ...but, the idea of 0.75 seconds to shift focus is waaaay off base in my experience.

11-01-2006, 11:53 AM	#48
Flexmoney XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 23	Leibster, I had read your previous post and it's "plausible explanation". I appreciate the information that you have been given, which you've accepted as fact. But, the numbers just don't hold up. There is some truth to your previous post which would allow your explanation to have an open ended degree of plausibility, but it just isn't fact (in our regards). Yes, to some extent, our senses can give us faulty input...even our vision. The brain's influence is powerful. But... I count on my vision as the primary source of feedback when I am shooting. I'm...pretty familiar with it. 1. Either your sources for the 0.75 seconds for focal shift are completely wrong, in our regard...or... 2. It just doesn't matter with regards to pistol shooting. Plausible explanation being that the eye gathers just enough information when switching focus to the sights that it can tell us...in a flash...the relationship/alignment of the sights. (So, who cares if it fills in the background info.) Perhaps it might be best to explain what top shooters see when they are shooting (well, what I see, I won't speak for others)... - With iron sights, my visual focus snaps to find what I term the target spot. This isn't just the target, it is the actual spot on the target that I want the gun to go to when it catches up to my eyes...when it comes on target. - As the gun catches up and comes on target (which I see in my peripheral) my visual focus shifts back to the front sight...with razor sharp clarity. - The time that it takes for the vision to shift from finding the target spot...back to the front sight (in razor sharp clarity) is about the same amount of time that it takes the gun to get there and get stopped on the target spot. And, I am not talking about transitioning the gun over to the target in a lazy manner...I am talking about driving the gun onto the target as if you were shooting against the Gods. What I practice in dry-fire (and what I think all standard sighted shooters should practice) is this shift of the focus. I pick out various things in the house to use as targets. These various targets should be a mix of near, far, high, low, big, small....etc. What I practice is to always keep my vision (visual focus) moving. I like to think of it (my visual focus) like a slide trombone. On the trombone, the musician always seems to have that slide in motion...in and out, back and forth. That is what my vision is doing. I call the shot (see the front sight in razor sharp focus), snap my vision to find the next target spot, as the gun comes in I bring my vision back to the front sight..again in razor sharp focus. When I am done with that target, my eyes snap to the next target, the vision comes back to the front sight...then the next...and the next. None of this vision shifting takes 0.75 seconds (or anywhere near that). My vision is far faster then my ability to move the gun. Leibster, I don't think you are going to convince any top shooter of the 0.75s focus shift claim. We all know our shooting a bit better than that. We know how long it takes to do X, Y, and Z. For instance, at 10y in dry-fire (where I can't use the guns recoil to cheat myself), I can go from the body to the head in less than 0.20s (top-speed ~0.15s). And, yes my vision shifts from the front sight (gun on the body)...to the head...and back to the front sight (gun on the head) in that time. I find your claim of 0.75s for a focus shift on pistol sights to be...well, ludicrous. Your sights may be fine. I can't comment on those. I've never tried them. I do like a large front sight, as they are easier to see. But that can be a trade off at distance. And, I sometimes will shoot with my front sight sitting up and out of the notch on close stuff (I still use the rear sight, I kinda level it up with the front/top of the slide). I am, though, taking Loves2shoot's comments about your rear sight to heart. I know his skill set, so I would explore what he was saying if I were trying these sights. And, you seem to be marketing them as a reference on the gun when using a target focus for shooting. That might be fine too. My eyes are still good enough (37yrs and counting) that I don't find the need for a fiber optic front sight (which I've found easy enough to see that I tend to look past it and at the target...resulting is sloppy hits/misses for me at times). Target focused shooters and shooters with less than optimal eye sights may benefit from your sights. It remains to be seen if they really provide the speed and precision needed for (practical) competition shooting at the highest levels. Last edited by Flexmoney; 11-01-2006 at 11:55 AM.

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