Cavalry Draw - Would you have given him what he wants?

[Rob Longenecker]

I really didn't want to say no, but I turned down a holster order the other day.
He was a nice guy and I probably made him mad. Would you have given him what he wanted even if you thought it wasn't safe?
Here are the details. I'd like to hear your opinions.
http://www.tuckergunleatherblog.com/2006/10/16/136/

[KYDoc]

I dunno, Rob. I see what you're saying, tho. I guess the other way to draw from a SOB holster is with the grip canted towards your strong hand so you bring the muzzle around away from your body, right?

(I never carried SOB)

How often do people shoot themselves with a 'cavalry draw'? On one hand, anyone could shoot themselves in the leg or foot from any holster position. But the bottom line is that if you feel that it would make you feel terrible if this fella shot himself in the pelvis and killed himself as a result of your holster, then you're the one that has to live with yourself.

As a surgeon, I have to constantly remind myself that I can't always take responsibility for my patients' actions, (either the events that caused the problem I'm trying to fix, or the ones that may impede recovery once I've fixed them) and there is a strong tendency to take personal responsibility for unintended outcomes. You have to decide how much responsibility you are going to take on yourself, and how much is truly out of your control (despite the fact that you feel you should be in control of EVERYTHING).

I personally would probably make him the holster if I could, but I'm not the one he asked. And if he shot himself with it I'd shrug and say I told him so. I think what you told him is fine, tho, and let the next guy make him an unsafe rig if you feel strongly about it. That's what this country is all about.

[arolfsen]

from a business stand point no, i wouldn't not have turned him down. i would have made him sign a waiver releasing you from any and all liablity. all it takes is for him to go out on the internet and slam you one good time to mess things up.

[CZAL]

As a business person and also a customer of yours with several Tucker holsters and one now on order I would have sold him the holster. But it would have carried the custom price tag also.

Who are we to decide what is safe and what isn't. The SOB design is considered by most experts to be dangerous just because where they are carried. A fall on your back (according to the experts) could and have left people paralyzed. Does this mean that you will not sell SOB holsters either.

Guns can be dangerous in the hands of those that don't know how to use them and also in the hands of those that do, so where do you draw the line if you draw one at all.

Tough call!

[manic mechanic]

Sometimes ya just gotta say NO! As a mechanic I've had to tell people to take their vehicles elsewhere because I was not going to be part of a vehicular homicide. Some just don't have a clue of what they are asking you to do, which is against all of your training and expertise. If it was a non-essential part like the radio, no problem, jury rig it, as long as no electrical short was going to cause a fire. But brakes, frontends, even a tune-up not done properly can cause injury if that vehicle stall in traffic and gets rear-ended. Most don't look at the big picture. Keep to your guns, yeah that's it, and don't give in to the all mighty dollar.

[goodformeto]

I firmly believe that a person must be responsible for their own actions. If I felt that I would be abstained from all misuse, I'd have sold it to him. However, I will always support a decision by an artist, craftmen, or manufacturer to refuse service to someone when they feel that their creation may be used "not as intended." It's a sad reality, that his actions will reflect on you. I strongly support your decision, largely because you had the courage to make it for your reasons.

[ichy_trigger]

I think I would have made him the holster. I see where you are coming from but i think we have enough people (Gov.) telling us what we should do to remain safe in our lives.

[deapee]

I'd sell him the holster. Every holster you sell, someone could shoot themselves while unholstering...no matter where the actual location sits on your 'danger' list.

Are you afraid he's going to shoot himself while drawing and be hurt, or are you afraid he's going to sue you because of it?

In either case, I don't see a reason to not sell it. First, if you're worried about his safety, then him telling you now that he's carrying like that without any holster at all means he's in even more danger. If it's the latter, then technically, he could just buy any holster you sell and deem safe, then sue you if he hurts himself. It seems, by this little venture here, that you are deeming every product you sell safe (at least in a court of law, they'd probably see it this way). I think you're opening yourself up for trouble, personally.

That being said, any business owner has the right to refuse to sell anything to anyone with or without a reason being given. So ultimately, you're the one who has to make the decision.

[darkvibe]

I would have made it for him but not after sending him a message that you think it is unsafe. I would not have made him sign a waiver or anything. I deal with liability at work a little bit. I've learned that contracts and waivers don't mean much. I've also learned that once you acknowledge something in writing or with witnesses you are now liable. If you made a holster and he shot himself then I don't think you could be held responsible (a jury may or may not agree with me in a civil suit.) If you made him a holster after telling him that you think it's unsafe I think there is a better chance that a civil jury might hold you responsible.

Not making it is probably the safest call on your part.

Just my 2 cents.

[KYDoc]

Originally Posted by darkvibe

I would have made it for him but not after sending him a message that you think it is unsafe. I would not have made him sign a waiver or anything. I deal with liability at work a little bit. I've learned that contracts and waivers don't mean much. I've also learned that once you acknowledge something in writing or with witnesses you are now liable. If you made a holster and he shot himself then I don't think you could be held responsible (a jury may or may not agree with me in a civil suit.) If you made him a holster after telling him that you think it's unsafe I think there is a better chance that a civil jury might hold you responsible.

Not making it is probably the safest call on your part.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, to be clear, it's not an unsafe holster. He is saying that using the holster the way it is designed to be used, but with poor trigger control can be unsafe. It's the action, not the holster.

In actuality, using the holster the proper way is safe.

The way lawyers try to pin this on companies rather than individuals is an issue called "forseeability." they say that if you could forsee that the person would misuse it, you have an obligation to do something about it.

I think it's bullsht, but that's what they do.