2012 Golden Gate IDPA Regional Championship - June 8-9

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Steve, Clyff didn't answer about classification. Most sanctioned matches require you to have a classification on record for that division or you can't compete in that division. Richmond may be diff, but that is my understanding for most sanctioned matches. Think about it, what division would you shoot? Most don't have an unclassified division.

IDPA rules say that you have to shoot a classifier at least once a year. We simply are a little more explicit by saying that you have to shoot a classifier after 6/8/2011 in the division in which you want to compete this year.

We do this because we used the IDPA rule in the past, and had people showing up to shoot ESP Marksman (with a three-year old classification) when they had an SSP Expert classification within the past 12 months. I never got the point of sandbagging (I'd rather be a middle-of-the-pack Expert than a first-place Sharpshooter), but there are people who choose to do it.

[OlympicFox]

Thanks Fred. I understood that it's required that a shooter be Classified in the Division they want to participate in at a sanctioned match.

I'm currently Classified in SSP & ESP, however, since I escaped the confines of Kommiefornia some years back, I don't own any 10-round magazines.

So, I saw my choices as . . .

1. Ignore the stupid 10-round CA rule on the assumption that there's little likelihood that I'd get caught since my mags would be locked up TSA-style except when I was at the match. Been there, done that, no T-shirts though.

2. Spend a few hundred $$ on 10-round magazines that wouldn't see the light of day outside of CA and perhaps a couple of east coast states.

3. Get Classified in CDP and avoid the whole issue. However, as much as I enjoy owning nice 1911's, I really don't enjoy shooting them very much.

My "plan" was behind Door #3 - get classified in CDP and shoot a 1911. I had sent my #1 1911 to SA's Custom Shop last fall for a new barrel and some mod's and just got it back a few weeks ago, so that plan was moving right along.

Then last Sunday, I had a chance to spend some quality time with my SA. The good news is that I was shooting 1" groups at 15 yards with it (standing unsupported). The other good news was that it ran flawlessly on my IDPA handload. The bad news is that I still don't enjoy shooting it nearly as much as I enjoy shooting my M&P or Sig, or even my old S&W 4563. Yeah, I know that's enough to get me tar & feathered in Arkansas.

So . . . I decided that instead of forcing myself to shoot the 1911, or shooting my lovely but uncompetitive Sig P226 Elite Stainless that I shoot regularly in local matches, I'd get a new M&P 9 Pro and build it into a proper ESP gun. So, I spent most of yesterday ordering the new M&P and all the bells and whistles, including a bunch of 10-round mags MidwayUSA because they were about the only ones that had them in stock. Mr. Potterfield says a pot full of magazines are headed my way, including $200 worth of silly 10-rounders. As Larry likes to say, that's the way it is.

As for sandbagging . . . I'm a Distinguished Senior that just started shooting IDPA last May, and shot my first Classifier in July, and the WA and ID state matches in August and September. While I've been shooting my Sig P226 Elite Stainless 40S&W in ESP regularly, I'm not sure it's fair to say I'm sandbagging if I show up with a properly prepared M&P instead of my Panzer-wagon Sig.

Originally Posted by fredj338

Steve, Clyff didn't answer about classification. Most sanctioned matches require you to have a classification on record for that division or you can't compete in that division. Richmond may be diff, but that is my understanding for most sanctioned matches. Think about it, what division would you shoot? Most don't have an unclassified division.
As far as mags, IMO, travel at your own risk. I don;t take my hicaps out of the house. I know if I get stopped by some local/yocal LEO, he is confiscating my mags at the least. So I travel & shoot w/ 10rd mags. It's IDPA, you only get 10rds anyway.

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by OlympicFox

So, I saw my choices as . . .

1. Ignore the stupid 10-round CA rule on the assumption that there's little likelihood that I'd get caught since my mags would be locked up TSA-style except when I was at the match. Been there, done that, no T-shirts though.

I'm not advocating anything here, but know that entering the state or traveling with high-cap mags disassembled into parts is not a crime. Putting them together is, but until you do, they are simply a bunch of parts (which the law does not address).

Originally Posted by OlympicFox

As for sandbagging . . . I'm a Distinguished Senior that just started shooting IDPA last May, and shot my first Classifier in July, and the WA and ID state matches in August and September. While I've been shooting my Sig P226 Elite Stainless 40S&W in ESP regularly, I'm not sure it's fair to say I'm sandbagging if I show up with a properly prepared M&P instead of my Panzer-wagon Sig.

That's not sandbagging. Sandbagging is finding ways to stay in a class lower than what is truly indicative of your skills. Examples of sandbagging might be:
* Purposely tanking the classifier so that you don't move up a class
* Picking a division at a sanctioned match that has fewer shooters so that there is likelihood that you are bumped up when you win your class

Running a game-specific gun is definitely NOT sandbagging.

[OlympicFox]

Originally Posted by Gryff

I'm not advocating anything here, but know that entering the state or traveling with high-cap mags disassembled into parts is not a crime. Putting them together is, but until you do, they are simply a bunch of parts (which the law does not address).

I'd heard that. Sort of dumb like the law we had up here that allowed us to own suppressors but not shoot with them. At least they fixed that law last year.

I really like to have at least 8 mags at a big match. That lets me load at my leisure and never feel pressured to get my mags loaded before my turn in the barrel. Since I compromised with my order of only 5 of the 10-round mags, I might bring a few 17-rounders. Or at least one hi-cap to facilitate loading to division capacity at the line.

One of my concerns was that TSA rules require the mags to be locked in a case, even unloaded mags. Disassembling the mags seems like a guaranteed way to raise TSA's eyebrows, should they look in the case.

OTOH, I've pretty much decided to drive so I can bring some family heirloom stuff home from my sister's and hauling guns and mags in my truck is easy as well as unlikely to attract the attention of any overzealous LEO's, especially since my driving doesn't attract their attention in the first place anymore.

Originally Posted by Gryff

That's not sandbagging. Sandbagging is finding ways to stay in a class lower than what is truly indicative of your skills. Examples of sandbagging might be:
* Purposely tanking the classifier so that you don't move up a class
* Picking a division at a sanctioned match that has fewer shooters so that there is likelihood that you are bumped up when you win your class

Running a game-specific gun is definitely NOT sandbagging.

One of the guys at the club was giving me a bad time this weekend when I mentioned my thoughts about buying an M&P & building it into an ESP specific gun because it would likely be much faster than the Sig that I've been shooting and classified with.

I figure that if I'd had the ESP-built M&P prior to the last classifier, but chose to classify with the Sig instead, with the intention of throttling myself, that would be sandbagging. If I do shoot well enough to get bumped, that would suggest that I had an uncharacteristically low number of brain farts during the match.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by OlympicFox

I'd heard that. Sort of dumb like the law we had up here that allowed us to own suppressors but not shoot with them. At least they fixed that law last year.

I really like to have at least 8 mags at a big match. That lets me load at my leisure and never feel pressured to get my mags loaded before my turn in the barrel. Since I compromised with my order of only 5 of the 10-round mags, I might bring a few 17-rounders. Or at least one hi-cap to facilitate loading to division capacity at the line.

One of my concerns was that TSA rules require the mags to be locked in a case, even unloaded mags. Disassembling the mags seems like a guaranteed way to raise TSA's eyebrows, should they look in the case.

OTOH, I've pretty much decided to drive so I can bring some family heirloom stuff home from my sister's and hauling guns and mags in my truck is easy as well as unlikely to attract the attention of any overzealous LEO's, especially since my driving doesn't attract their attention in the first place anymore.


One of the guys at the club was giving me a bad time this weekend when I mentioned my thoughts about buying an M&P & building it into an ESP specific gun because it would likely be much faster than the Sig that I've been shooting and classified with.

I figure that if I'd had the ESP-built M&P prior to the last classifier, but chose to classify with the Sig instead, with the intention of throttling myself, that would be sandbagging. If I do shoot well enough to get bumped, that would suggest that I had an uncharacteristically low number of brain farts during the match.

Unless TSA changed rules since last Nov, mags don't have to be locked in anything. Ammo doesn't either. I went to GA for the state champs in may. I carried 200rds of ammo & my mags inside a small range bag inside my checked bag along w/ my guns locked int he case. That is legal or at least was as of last Nov.
A lot of guys here are using high cap mags in their IDPA matches. I am not giving advice, just stating what I see as an SO. I would not, but that is me. I know that if I get stopped by LE, they are taking my mags first & I'll lose them at the least, so I travel & shoot w/ 10rd mags for the approp div.
BTW, you do NOT have to classify w/ the gun you shoot, just the div you want to shoot in. So switching guns is no big deal. I go back & forth in CDP between a 1911 & XDTAC shooting 8+1. I classified w/ the 1911 & probably will reclassify w/ it, but enjoy shooting the XD as well. I look forward to the day I get bumped up in a class because of a match win.

[OlympicFox]

RE: "Standard Capacity" magazines: Let's start by calling the standard magazines that come with pistols what they are - STANDARD MAGAZINES. The are NOT Hi-Capacity magazines. Special 10-round magazines designed to meet the requirements of silly laws are just that SPECIAL LOW CAPACITY. IMHO, we shoot ourselves in the foot when we call our standard mags "Hi Caps" because that language feeds the fires of the anti-gunners. OK?

Now that that's settled - yeah, right! - we're still stuck with CA's law stipulating low capacity 10-round magazines. If I was flying to the match, the opportunities for an incident with CA LEO's would be minimal because it's only a short drive from the Oakland Airport to the match. The folks in WA don't give a hoot about what kind of mags or guns I have when I check through TSA in SeaTac, and nobody inspects the bags I arrive in CA. However, when I check through TSA in Oakland for the return flight that there's a risk of bumping into a TSA agent that's a CA-type anti-gunner. There's a real risk of that and nothing public in TSA's policy that prevents the TSA agent from contacting local LEO's.

However, I've changed my plans & I'll be driving. The good news is that avoids TSA and the potential for that snafu. But, there's always a chance of involvement in a traffic situation that involved CA LEO's which could lead to their finding my standard mags. Naturally, the situation would have to be one that gave the LEO a reason to want to inspect my vehicle and that's not likely, but it is possible.

Only time will tell what I decide to do. I do have 5 10-round mags on order for the M&P; they are on backorder but likely to arrive in plenty of time. Of course, the easy way out is to shoot my 1911 in CDP.

RE: Shooting a variety of guns: I like to shoot a wide variety of guns. I have at least two very different guns that I shoot in each pistol division.

SSP: M&P 9 Pro, Kahr K9 or S&W 3913
ESP: M&P 40L, SA 1911 or Sig P226 Elite Stainless
CDP: SA 1911 or S&W 4563

Some folks seem to be offended by this. Why, I haven't a clue, but two guys that are IDPA SO's gave me a really hard time this week when I was practicing with my 1911 for use in ESP. They insisted that shooting a 45-caliber 1911 tuned for 125,000PF in ESP was against the rules and I'd be DQ'd. One threatened to DQ me for shooting my S&W 4563 because it has a mag safety and won't drop the hammer without a mag in the gun. Frankly, it's pretty annoying & since the most recent incidents were just week, I'm still PO'd about it.


RE: Magazines & TSA: The way I read the TSA rules are that magazines must be packed in a hard-sided case with the firearm. See the quote from the TSA site (I've bolded the section so it's easy to find and grayed out the rest).

TSA doesn't seem to have rules on the quantity of ammunition, but Southwest Airlines does - 11#. That's 300 rounds of 9mm, 250 rounds of 200gr 40S&W and 200 rounds of 230gr 45ACP.

TSA Web Site
Traveling with Special Items

Firearms & Ammunition
Travelers may only transport unloaded firearms in a locked, hard-sided container in or as checked baggage. Firearms, ammunition and firearm parts, including firearm frames and receivers, are prohibited from carry-on baggage.
Failure to adhere to the following regulations will preclude passengers from traveling with firearms, ammunitions or firearm parts:

• Travelers must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
• The firearm must be unloaded.
• The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
• The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft.
• If firearms are not properly declared or packaged, TSA will provide the bag to law enforcement for resolution with the airline. If the issue is resolved, law enforcement will release the bag to TSA so screening may be completed.
• TSA must resolve all alarms of checked luggage. If a locked container containing a firearm alarms, TSA will contact the airline, who will make a reasonable attempt to contact the owner and advise the passenger to go to the screening location. If contact is not made, the container will not be placed on the aircraft.
• If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm.
• Travelers should remain in the area designated by the aircraft operator or TSA representative to take the key back after the container is cleared for transportation.
• Travelers must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
• Firearm magazines and ammunition clips must be securely boxed or included within a hard-sided case containing an unloaded firearm.
• Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber for a rifle or pistol and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as it follows the packing guidelines described above.
• TSA prohibits black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder.

Originally Posted by fredj338

Unless TSA changed rules since last Nov, mags don't have to be locked in anything. Ammo doesn't either. I went to GA for the state champs in may. I carried 200rds of ammo & my mags inside a small range bag inside my checked bag along w/ my guns locked int he case. That is legal or at least was as of last Nov.
A lot of guys here are using high cap mags in their IDPA matches. I am not giving advice, just stating what I see as an SO. I would not, but that is me. I know that if I get stopped by LE, they are taking my mags first & I'll lose them at the least, so I travel & shoot w/ 10rd mags for the approp div.
BTW, you do NOT have to classify w/ the gun you shoot, just the div you want to shoot in. So switching guns is no big deal. I go back & forth in CDP between a 1911 & XDTAC shooting 8+1. I classified w/ the 1911 & probably will reclassify w/ it, but enjoy shooting the XD as well. I look forward to the day I get bumped up in a class because of a match win.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by OlympicFox

RE: "Standard Capacity" magazines: Let's start by calling the standard magazines that come with pistols what they are - STANDARD MAGAZINES. The are NOT Hi-Capacity magazines. Special 10-round magazines designed to meet the requirements of silly laws are just that SPECIAL LOW CAPACITY. IMHO, we shoot ourselves in the foot when we call our standard mags "Hi Caps" because that language feeds the fires of the anti-gunners. OK?

Some folks seem to be offended by this. Why, I haven't a clue, but two guys that are IDPA SO's gave me a really hard time this week when I was practicing with my 1911 for use in ESP. They insisted that shooting a 45-caliber 1911 tuned for 125,000PF in ESP was against the rules and I'd be DQ'd. One threatened to DQ me for shooting my S&W 4563 because it has a mag safety and won't drop the hammer without a mag in the gun. Frankly, it's pretty annoying & since the most recent incidents were just week, I'm still PO'd about it.


RE: Magazines & TSA: The way I read the TSA rules are that magazines must be packed in a hard-sided case with the firearm. See the quote from the TSA site (I've bolded the section so it's easy to find and grayed out the rest).

TSA doesn't seem to have rules on the quantity of ammunition, but Southwest Airlines does - 11#. That's 300 rounds of 9mm, 250 rounds of 200gr 40S&W and 200 rounds of 230gr 45ACP.

First, not all SO's have a lot of fireaqrms experience or even understand all the IDPA divisions. I shoot my XDTAC downloaded in ESP w/ 10rd mags, perfectly legal. I also shoot it in CDP loading 8+1, also perfectly legal. Get a rule book & carry it, high light the pages (pg21). It's pretty clear for ESP: International Defensive Pistol Association
Must be semiauto
Must be 9mm or larger
Must weigh less than 43oz
Must fit in the IDPA box
Must NOT have more than 10rds
Must be 125PF
That's it, no other restrictions. So they would have to show me in the rule book where I can NOT shoot my 45acp against the lighter recoiling 9mm. Yes, I get a bigger hole but have slightly more recoil. For me, I can't get down to a true 125PF I have a reliable gun w/o a bunch of srping mods, so shoot a 200gr LTC @ 700fps, pretty soft shooting. I can shoot the same spring w/ my CDP load of a 200gr LTC @ 850fps.
BTW, lots of guns have mag safeties & are perfectly safe & legal for IDPA. Again, the rule book is a good start. Your SO buddies need to read up on the regs, go shoot a few sanctioned matches & see how it's done. Lot's of rule bending goes on at local matches & the sanctioned matches are pretty squared away as to following rules. When to reload seems to get a lot of Ps as well as taking improper cover.
Read the TSA regs again. It does NOT say locked case, it says hard sided case. Basically, not thrown around loose, same for the ammo. My mags go into my range bag empty (soft case) or gun case, depends on what & am taking, but they fit fine in my locked hardcase w/ two pistols, 5 mags per gun is plenty. The ammo in plastic ammo boxes that are taped to prevent opening, also in the range bag. I have yet to have them ask to look at ammo in some 6 trips over the years. They only want to verify guns are unloaded & sometimes not even that. TSA doesn't care about how much ammo you have, that is an ailrine reg & it's 11# everywhere. Can you fudge, maybe. I have never been checked, but a buddy I flew with was nit very pleasent to the airline gal & she made him pull all his ammo out & weighed it. You can do what I do if I need more than 200rds & UPS it to a friend near your destination if possible. Saves luggage wt too, you only get 50# total w/o going over. You'll have few problems flying w/ guns into any reasonable state, even Kommifornia. I fly in & out all the time. Just be nice, pack it right, no issues.

[OlympicFox]

Originally Posted by fredj338

First, not all SO's have a lot of fireaqrms experience or even understand all the IDPA divisions. I shoot my XDTAC downloaded in ESP w/ 10rd mags, perfectly legal. I also shoot it in CDP loading 8+1, also perfectly legal. Get a rule book & carry it, high light the pages (pg21). It's pretty clear for ESP: International Defensive Pistol Association
Must be semiauto
Must be 9mm or larger
Must weigh less than 43oz
Must fit in the IDPA box
Must NOT have more than 10rds
Must be 125PF
That's it, no other restrictions. So they would have to show me in the rule book where I can NOT shoot my 45acp against the lighter recoiling 9mm. Yes, I get a bigger hole but have slightly more recoil.

I agree. However, one of them pulled out the IDPA Rule Book and pointed right to this table . . .



. . . and said "See, right here [the CDP line] you have to make 165,000 power factor with that gun." I pointed out that that didn't apply if I shot it in ESP. "Nope, you have to make 165,000 with that gun."

It's just not possible to have a reasonable discussion with someone that has it locked in their head that the 45-caliber 1911 is forever locked into CDP and has to meet CDP specs no matter what.

FYI, I can't get to 125PF with my 1911 either. I'm pretty sure the 45ACP slide is heavier than most 9mm 1911 slides. Plus, mine is quite tight when it's in battery and takes a some energy just to get out of lockup. But, it's been reliable so far with 10 test rounds of 129PF 230gr using an 11# recoil spring. Further testing is in order obviously.

True, I missed the isty-bitsy "or" between boxed and in the same hard-sided case as the firearm.

I noted the Southwest 11# rule because I have no experience with the other carriers. Good to know that everyone is on the same page with that. Thanks. I always weigh my ammo before I pack it anyway - CYA.

UPSing ammo . . . I'd thought of that. Also thought of UPSing my mags to my sister that I'll be staying with. Of course, it would be hard to argue the definition of "importing" doing that.

Since my older daughter started blessing us with grandkids, I've been making several trips a year to CA. Except for the first time when I didn't think of it and took my Sig P226 complete with extra high capacity SCT mags, I've taken nothing but single-stack guns to CA. Earlier this month, I took 4 single-stack pistols with me. The rules might say no big mags, but it doesn't limit the number of guns!!!

I'm ALWAYS very nice & cooperative with folks that hold the keys to smooth sailing!

I've bumped against the 50# twice. I weighed my gun bag using my 75# postal scale last time before leaving home to make sure I was OK.

[Damon]

Originally Posted by OlympicFox

I agree. However, one of them pulled out the IDPA Rule Book and pointed right to this table . . .



. . . and said "See, right here [the CDP line] you have to make 165,000 power factor with that gun." I pointed out that that didn't apply if I shot it in ESP. "Nope, you have to make 165,000 with that gun."

It's just not possible to have a reasonable discussion with someone that has it locked in their head that the 45-caliber 1911 is forever locked into CDP and has to meet CDP specs no matter what.

FYI, I can't get to 125PF with my 1911 either. I'm pretty sure the 45ACP slide is heavier than most 9mm 1911 slides. Plus, mine is quite tight when it's in battery and takes a some energy just to get out of lockup. But, it's been reliable so far with 10 test rounds of 129PF 230gr using an 11# recoil spring. Further testing is in order obviously.

True, I missed the isty-bitsy "or" between boxed and in the same hard-sided case as the firearm.

I noted the Southwest 11# rule because I have no experience with the other carriers. Good to know that everyone is on the same page with that. Thanks. I always weigh my ammo before I pack it anyway - CYA.

UPSing ammo . . . I'd thought of that. Also thought of UPSing my mags to my sister that I'll be staying with. Of course, it would be hard to argue the definition of "importing" doing that.

Since my older daughter started blessing us with grandkids, I've been making several trips a year to CA. Except for the first time when I didn't think of it and took my Sig P226 complete with extra high capacity SCT mags, I've taken nothing but single-stack guns to CA. Earlier this month, I took 4 single-stack pistols with me. The rules might say no big mags, but it doesn't limit the number of guns!!!

I'm ALWAYS very nice & cooperative with folks that hold the keys to smooth sailing!

I've bumped against the 50# twice. I weighed my gun bag using my 75# postal scale last time before leaving home to make sure I was OK.

OlympicFox, Which club were you shooting at that told you you couldn't shoot your 1911 .45 in ESP? Just curious because I shoot almost all the clubs here in Washington State. You can PM me if you don't want to post it here.

[OlympicFox]

Originally Posted by fredj338

First, not all SO's have a lot of fireaqrms experience or even understand all the IDPA divisions.

I don't expect SO's to be experts with all kinds of firearms.

However, I do expect SO's to be knowledgeable of the safety procedures with a few basic - an common - designs:

• Striker fired with multi-part "safe" trigger (Glock, M&P, XD) and with conventional trigger (Kahr)
• Traditional DA/SA with decocker (Sig)
• Traditional DA/SA with & with decocker/safety (Beretta, CZ, HK, & S&W)
• DAO
• SAO with safety
• Any of the above with a magazine safety

While most SO's probably have very little experience beyond the striker-fired Glock/M&P/XD safe-action trigger and/or the cocked and locked SAO 1911's doesn't relieve them of the responsibility for understanding the basics of handling the other common types. And if they don't understand the operation of the pistol that's on the firing line then they need to either (a) get someone up there that does understand the basic operation of that gun or (b) enlist the assistance of the shooter and work it out in a supportive and friendly manner. Telling the shooter that his gun is unsafe and he should be DQ'd is indefensible.