XD Achilles heal

[retired]

OEM, he is actually being trained the correct way for le. If the shtf and he is in a firefight, he has no time to either catch the empty mag nor watch where it drops while changing to a full one.

What is he supposed to do, tell the bad guy let's move over to the grass for our fight, I can't drop my mag on the concrete or asphalt, it might get damaged. That, of course, can't be done.

Also, even tho it is practice, he needs to practice for real life, so it becomes instinctive if and when he really does get into a shooting. One can't practice one way (i.e. catch the mag or drop it in the dirt) and then do it differently in real life; it will get you killed.

This is part of the reason the 4 CHP officers approx. 30 yrs. ago were killed in Newhall, Ca. They practiced to put their empty brass (revolvers) into their pocket instead of dumping them on the ground. Also, they had to write a memo if they broke the paper seal on the shotgun. Boils down to instincts in the end.

I agree with many of your posts on various subjects, but on this one my friend, with all due respect, you are incorrect and centermass is right to be concerned about the mags and he is doing his reloading correctly in my professional opinion. Take care.

[centermass]

I had this long drawn out thingy written before I realized I had been logged off, and retired answered before I could get it in, however because it took so much of my damn time, I decided I owed it to myself to post it anyway. Thanks for the assist retired.

So, without further ado, here it comes one-eyed-fatman:

rantn

I never stated I was slamming my magazines onto the concrete, only that when they were dropped (that is, by pressing the mag release and allowing them to fall with only gravity doing it's magic) onto the concrete that they seem to always land on the feed lips. I dunno, maybe this had something to do with the heaviest part of the empty magazine being the end containing the follower and the most metal, but what the hell do I know, I've got way less posts than you do so I obviously must have no shooting or firearms experience. I said we were trained (that is instructed, not suggested) to remove the mags quickly and forcefully in case they do not drop free (which started happening later due to the damage), but knowing that I have metal body mags and not the more forgiving plastic-covered mags that everyone else in the class was using, I was a little more mindful of how "forcefully" I performed this operation in an effort to be as careful with the mags as the situation would permit. More often than not I simply went through the motions of ripping the mags out forcefully even though they were dropping free to build the muscle memory of the exercise so I would learn it properly as well as not get yelled at. However no amount of caution seemed to avoid damaging the mouths of the magazines.

Unfortunately, my academy instructors (who no doubt have many more collective years of experience and training than you) were not too keen on any of us gently releasing the mags and ever-so-carefully placing our empty mags on a little pink satin pillow with frills and unicorns on it when we were supposed to be performing mag changes as quickly as possible because an empty gun will kill you faster than a loaded one when confronting threats in a deadly force situation, but they probably have less posts here than you too and must also be, um, "just dead meat waiting to die" (?)...

My firearm is always kept in perfect working condition, however as we all should know magazines can be fickle, and it is hard to know if they are working properly unless you are using them frequently. Chances are when I am hired with an agency I will not be using my XD anyway, so it's a moot point. Regardless of manufacturer, if I end up in a dire confrontation and have to use more than one mag's worth of ammo, rip an empty mag out to do an expedient change for a fresh one or clear a phase 2 malf, and then slam that mag on the ground, so be it. That empty or malfunctioning mag is useless to me anyway and is no longer my concern, stopping the immediate threat is. It has nothing to do with preventative maintenance or "abusing the very tool that could save my life". I know how to clean and take care of my sh*t and do that at all times so it will be functional when needed, but the course of fire at school is designed to train you to deal with the situation of a deadly force encounter. When that happens, retaining your weapon, firing COM, instinctively clearing malfs, and ultimately stopping the BG is the goal, not worrying about scratches on your gun and dropping your mags on concrete.

Considering I put 1600 rounds through 3 mags over several days (even with the damage of "slamming" them on the firing line and having to fix them in the few minutes between relays) I had ZERO malfunctions, which is a great testimony for the XD and the mags I guess, but in the interest of my recreational shooting, protecting my investment in my firearm and its magazines which I cannot afford to replace at this time simply because they are scratched up, and simply an observation of the durability of the magazines and their effects on the inside of the firearm itself after some abuse, I thought I'd tell of my experience so that others may benefit. Nowhere did I try to imply that the damage was not my fault, I am only suggesting that maybe the amount of force with which I was dropping my mags was not unusual or undue for myself or anyone shooting in training or competitions, and reinforcement in that area of the mag or different construction method or material may be an improvement.

So, before you tell me what I deserve and give me some more jackass advice like drive my car off a cliff, button your lip because I'll be on the street risking my ass to save what may possibly be yours someday, and I'm pretty sure I know what is good for and not good for my daily carry weapon and other equipment. With posts like that, YOU deserve to have problems.

rantff

After all of that I forgot what I was mad about, but reading it over again made me laugh anyway. My apologies to OEF just in case I hurt your feelings badly.

Later, STEVE

[one-eyed-fatman]

Originally Posted by retired

OEM, he is actually being trained the correct way for le. If the shtf and he is in a firefight, he has no time to either catch the empty mag nor watch where it drops while changing to a full one.

What is he supposed to do, tell the bad guy let's move over to the grass for our fight, I can't drop my mag on the concrete or asphalt, it might get damaged. That, of course, can't be done.

Also, even tho it is practice, he needs to practice for real life, so it becomes instinctive if and when he really does get into a shooting. One can't practice one way (i.e. catch the mag or drop it in the dirt) and then do it differently in real life; it will get you killed.

This is part of the reason the 4 CHP officers approx. 30 yrs. ago were killed in Newhall, Ca. They practiced to put their empty brass (revolvers) into their pocket instead of dumping them on the ground. Also, they had to write a memo if they broke the paper seal on the shotgun. Boils down to instincts in the end.

I agree with many of your posts on various subjects, but on this one my friend, with all due respect, you are incorrect and centermass is right to be concerned about the mags and he is doing his reloading correctly in my professional opinion. Take care.

Excellent post retired. But doesn't throwing your gear down on the ground so hard you damage it work against you? Loading a damaged mag may cause your gun to malfunction. If that happens all those speed drills just got you killed.

[GhostDog]

Here's my 2 cents.

He's being taught the proper LEO technique. However, while practicing, if one's magazines are going to be dropping on a hard surface, one should take proper steps to protect them without changing the training routine.
The easiest thing to do is throw a jacket or piece of cardboard down in front of the shooter and just drop the mags all you want to.

Luckily, every firing range I've ever been on was outdoors, in grass. The worst thing I have to worry about is shooting prone if it has been raining!

[aiformula]

I shoot USPSA and I have a number of magazines I use when I shoot competition. I also have 2 magazines that never seen any use other than range lanes where I can remove the mag and place it on the shelf. These 2 mags are the 2 I keep for nightstand use. I marked them w/ little colored dot stickers on the mag base pads so I know which ones not to use at in comp. Might be something to consider for you LE guys.

FWIW, I do the same thing w/ my $40/mag HK carry mags.

[one-eyed-fatman]

centermass

So, before you tell me what I deserve and give me some more jackass advice like drive my car off a cliff, button your lip because I'll be on the street risking my ass to save what may possibly be yours someday

If your gun malfunctions due to abuse of the mags it could be another officer or CHL'er saving your bacon. I sure hope you plan on replacing those abused mags with new one's before you get to the streets. It just might save your life. Save the abused ones for training only.

[JD McDorce]

-deleted-

[Parabellum9x19mm]

dont you guys clean your mags or swap out springs when you have to? just treat it as any other part of the weapon...a part that needs to be maintained as any other.

[Eager]

If your slamming your mags onto concrete then you deserve to have problems. Not only that but your creating those problems. When you abuse the very tool that can save your life your just dead meat waiting to die. Now go drive your car off a 50 foot cliff and see if it works ok after that.

Please don't listen to this bafoonery. Anyone who's ever taken a handgun class or shot USPSA has (in the fatdumbasse's words) slammed your mags into the ground, concrete, rocks, asphalt or whatever is below during a (non-tactical) mag change. Such is the the life of a mag. Fatman must only practice mag changes on the carpet in front of his TV. He needs to get out more.

[back40]

Thanks for all the responses...I have emailed Springfield about the quality (or lack there of) of their mags. I'll post their response if I get one.

Spade: I'm curious as to why you think high polished mags are a benefit?

Parabellum: Of course the mags are cleaned. That isn't the point. Small amounts of dust shouldn't be causing the issues that myself, and apparently others, have been experiencing. The guys with Glocks and Berettas go all day long without failures.

Warhead: I know you can use Beretta mags after hacking them, but it is my understanding that the Beretta mags are taller and therefore you can't slam them in otherwise you will smash the ejecter. This really isn't a viable solution for an eXtreme Duty pistol anways.

Centermass: You're doing it the right way.

Do the new 16 round mags function any better? Everyone seems to be out of them.