Oh man... hectic night last night....

[Lucky]

Now as I sit back and think about things... This happens to be a very good post, and as many have said... we should all learn from this.



Now some are somewhat still confused about the total situation. So I am going to kinda pan it out for you so you can have a mental image.


1. I did not use force on the guy at first when he came up to my comfort zone- because then I could have been charged with assualt. He didn't do anything to me, he was just in my face, not touching me and almost asking for me to hit him.... All I did was push him back a little (with out him noticing) when he started yelling at Jenni.



Now

-Things happened all too fast and I don't think Jenni knew really what to do because I believe this is all a first for us. He first instint was to tell the guy to go away and grow up.

-The reason why I stepped out of my vechile because KAYBAY is seating directly behind the drivers seat so there for that guy would have been on hers and my side screaming and causing a scene, so I was trying to get him far as possible from my child.

-I tried to walk away a few times, but he still wouldnt go away, I came back becuase he was starting to yell at Jenni.


Visualize this






Ok I have draw up a crap diagram just to give you in your mind our places. Now after I pushed the guy back off me, I thought it was done.. so I turned around to go get my daughter. But he didnt stop and started yelling at Jen... so I turned around and got him to step back and was yelling at him to take his mind of my family and worry about me.

Now the reason why Jenni grabbed KAY out of the car and took off running was for the sole reason of IF he had a gun. Where I was at and where he was at, she wanted to get Kay and herself out of the situation of being hit by a stray bullet.. I believe in my mind she did the right thing.


Now many are asking why I didn't stop him from grabbing a gun out of his car becuase that could have been assualt. If I would have touched him in the manner to putting him in my control can be used against me if the police would have shown up. If I would have struck he would have struggled and a fight would have begin. Now if the cops show up, all he could have said was "I was heading back to my car and this punk came up to me started hitting me...." And boom I would have been sitting in the back of a cop car pissed off as all hell.


So I did not approach him when he was searching for his gun.. I simply stayed semi hidden ready to pull out of my IWB holster. I kept him in my eyes the whole time and kept my body hidden... so if he would have brandished a weapon I would have fired. I knew that jenni and kay were heading to safety and I did not want to follow them because that would have been 2 innocent stand bys when he would have been shooting at me. So I stayed back, yelling out for help to call the police and keeping on his mind with my voice for him to know where I was standing..... standing in a whole nother direction then where jenni and kay were heading.


I hope this clears up some confusion.... Please continue talking about this situation, we are all learning well about this.


Thankyou for your time.

[retired]

Norway, I'm glad that verbal judo worked for you. My former dept. was probably one of the first large dept. that tried that back in the 80s. They had great plans for it. Many of the lower brass and deps were going to become instructors after all of us went thru the course.

Well, I'm not sure if it even lasted a year, but if memory serves me correctly, the good doc and his program were booted out. I don't know, maybe the methods he used were his early ones and they weren't quite refined, but I do know he fell out of favor with the brass (including the Sheriff) and we stopped doing it. I'm guessing the lt. or capt. that suggested him didn't get promoted after that.

If you look in his bio, where he lists depts. he has worked with, he lists ours as the L.A. County Police Dept. and then lists LAPD right below. I guess he didn't like us either since the dept. is actually a Sheriffs dept.

[one-eyed-fatman]

So why did you spend 6 years learning akido jujistu? You remind me of folks on another forum that are so afraid of breaking the law they are not willing to protect themself's. Why learn self defense, why carry a gun if your not willing to use it to protect yourself? Some of these people sound like they would rather run away and chance getting shot in the back rather than risk the possibly of breaking the law. Just doesn't make any sense to me. When your more afraid of the law than the BG's the BG's win.

[RLLOVER]

Problem is there are some folks out there that are looking for you to throw the first punch kick or attack so they can sue the crap out of you.

They start it and take it right to the edge, then they wait for you to respond physically.

Not everyone sees him invade your space and start verbally assaulting you. They do happen to see you using his head to make some artistic impressions in the hood of his vehicle.

My wife and I have talked to great extent about what to do in certain situations. Most of the time it involves both of us looking for the fastest and safest way out.

Fires in the home, someone breaking in, road rage problems.

You'll rarely see us talking while heading to or from our vehicles in parking garages or lots. We are scanning for potential problems.

It's hard to act swiftly and correctly against a hostile if you are shocked by their presence. Even harder if you never thought about what you shold do in a given situation. Martial training teaches us to prepare mentally and physically. I too am guilty of slacking off when I first got my permit. Then I remembered that often I am alone and they probably won't be. I can't give them the edge in numbers and surprise.

I will admit I have a fairly negative outlook towards the world at large. Being jumped and stabbed in the neighborhood you grew up in tends to open your eyes to the world around you, and everyone is a potential threat until they prove otherwise. It kinda sucks at first, but you get used to it.

It's a little eye opener and fortunately it was with a Mall Ninja. "I'll get you when I find my gun!!!!" What a jerk.

[nogoa]

Originally Posted by one-eyed-fatman

So why did you spend 6 years learning akido jujistu? You remind me of folks on another forum that are so afraid of breaking the law they are not willing to protect themself's. Why learn self defense, why carry a gun if your not willing to use it to protect yourself? Some of these people sound like they would rather run away and chance getting shot in the back rather than risk the possibly of breaking the law. Just doesn't make any sense to me. When your more afraid of the law than the BG's the BG's win.

Guy who throw first punch, end up in cage.

[one-eyed-fatman]

Originally Posted by nogoa

Guy who throw first punch, end up in cage.

Better to end up in cage than shot in the back.

[Don]

Originally Posted by nogoa

Guy who throw first punch, end up in cage.

Nope, it is like a football game with referees. It does not matter who throws the first punch or who knows it, it matters who is seen by the refs thowing the first punch. Slight but real difference.

If you are going throw a first punch, be quick and subtle. Then shout like a MF to make sure all of the witnesses are now watching to testify who threw the first punch.

[sjp2452]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Your verbal expressions didn't help. BUT, I think you did the right thing getting out of the car. You saw a possible threat approaching, and you acted to redirect that threat away from your family.

Further, you did the right thing by keeping hands-off. The guy was probably high on something. Any physical contact initiated by you would have touched off an explosion. Since there was already some screaming, it's likely you had witnesses that would have reported YOU making first physical contact.

Further, you did the right thing by seeking a position of cover and making ready to draw & fire. Kudos on dumping your pride and shouting--that was the best move possible. Draw attention, get him to go away.

All safe, all went home (and shopping), no gunfire. Why shouldn't you be happy? Celebrate with a trip to the range.

CONGRATULATIONS! Job well done. Yeah, some of the verbal stuff probabaly didn't help, but all's well that ends well.

Oh...and THANK YOU for your service to our country.

[Delija]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Now many are asking why I didn't stop him from grabbing a gun out of his car becuase that could have been assualt. If I would have touched him in the manner to putting him in my control can be used against me if the police would have shown up. .

I understand what you are saying, and how you felt at the time. And how you feel now.

But to my way of thinking, as I said already, you had the training and therefore presumably the ability to restrain the guy from getting his gun. As OEFM said, if you have the ability, when WOULD you use it if not in such a situation?

I think that you may have the terms "assault" and "battery" not properly distinguished. From the way I understand your episode you already had been assaulted. "Assault" is a threat. The "battery" part of "assault and battery" is the physical contact. The assault was a done deal by the time he headed for his vehicle.

This guy said he was going to get his gun. He threatened to "teach you a lesson" with his gun. THAT IS ASSAULT.

If you had restrained him and then called the police and told them your side of the story, your biggest risk would have been that he did not have a gun in the car. If he did, you would certainly have been justified in physically restraining him. The presence of a gun in his vehicle would have clinched your case. The likelihood he had a permit to carry a gun in his car is also somewhat sliim. People who behave the way he did will usually have a record, and not be entitled to a CCW permit. In which case no matter what the police or witnesses thought or said about your altercation, the guy would have been arrested on a weapons charge. You, with your wife and child would have been unwanted paperwork at most. I cannot see any way you would have been in trouble by taking action in self defense.

If he didn't have a gun, and was just bluffing, then you may have had a bit of a harder time explaining your actions, but better safe than sorry. You still would have had a clear issue of his blocking you into the space with his car, which seems like it should have gone a long way to help substantiate your story if the police found no gun. The position of his car fits too well with your version. He would have no version at all...how could he explain his car being in the middle of the parking lot?

Someone says they are getting a gun and indicate malice, you have been assaulted. You have a clear right to defend yourself. More than that....you had an obligation since he was a threat not only to you but to your wife and child.

If you did not see fit to use your martial arts skills in this episode, under what circumstances would you feel you would resort to the six years of training?

Peace,
D.

[Delija]

Originally Posted by Don

[If you are going throw a first punch, be quick and subtle. Then shout like a MF to make sure all of the witnesses are now watching to testify who threw the first punch.

The problem with that is the first punch should be the only punch. Street fighting is not boxing. No gloves, no sparing helmet. One strike and you are out. Cold.

Peace,
D.