The End All on 9MM's

[matlt]

The only pros and cons are the ones you believe to exist. There shouldn't be any minimum size for a defense round. Bottom line, indisputable, the best defense round is the one that will destroy the most tissue without over penetrating. Obviously, a 22 can kill a person. So can surprising someone. Also, you think you're going to be taking well aimed shots at a person when you're shooting to save your life? Head shots are for snipers. There's a reason behind center mass, it leaves the least room for error and gives you a good chance of hitting an organ. Also, the bigger your bullet, the less room for error there is. You can discuss hypothetical situations all day. Fact is, bigger is better.

[Edubya]

[quote=DMWyatt;1025349]

Originally Posted by Jack the Toad

Crapping in a bullet is supposed to make it more lethal?

...I don't even know what to say except DAMN!

Humor me, why do you propose that crapping on a bullet is going to make it more lethal?

This idea, whether true or not, probably comes from the effectiveness of the "punji sticks" (see ref. below) that were used against our soldiers in Nam. They were just pointed bamboo sticks in the ground and the points had been smeared with feces. The soldier that stepped on one or through his body on one to take cover was certain to get a very bad infection and be out of combat for more than a short time.

Punji stick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jcabin]

[quote=Edubya;1025722]

Originally Posted by DMWyatt

This idea, whether true or not, probably comes from the effectiveness of the "punji sticks" (see ref. below) that were used against our soldiers in Nam. They were just pointed bamboo sticks in the ground and the points had been smeared with feces. The soldier that stepped on one or through his body on one to take cover was certain to get a very bad infection and be out of combat for more than a short time.

Punji stick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the funny thing is, wikipedia doesnt get it right, those little vc's didnt smear the poo on the stick they actually inserted it inside themselves to cover the punji stick, silly vc's!

[BMC6765]

Originally Posted by G60

what's going on in this thread??

Dont know, but someone is packing HP's with human crap???

[eric_t12]

"let's not start the caliber debate"

+1,000

it accomplishes very little, and it still won't make you comfortable with one or the other. just find the one you are comfortable with, and go with it.

[thunderjohn]

Go with the 9mm if you like it. It's a great caliber, especially with the right ammo. (Well, that opens up another can.) If you don't want to spend a fortune on ammo, then you won't practice much. You'll never get agreement here about what size to go with. If bigger was better, all the PD's and gov't agencies would be carrying 45's. You know what? They don't. And the odds of them needing to shoot someone compared to John Doe citizen is ? Don't know the odds, but it's amazingly high. There are a lot of cowboys on some of these forums that watch too many movies.

[DMWyatt]

[quote=Edubya;1025722]

Originally Posted by DMWyatt

This idea, whether true or not, probably comes from the effectiveness of the "punji sticks" (see ref. below) that were used against our soldiers in Nam. They were just pointed bamboo sticks in the ground and the points had been smeared with feces. The soldier that stepped on one or through his body on one to take cover was certain to get a very bad infection and be out of combat for more than a short time.

Punji stick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK fair enough, but the context is for a .22 used by a hitman. Assuming that you will have enough feces in a 22 hp to cause an infection, what is a hitman doing waiting around for someone to die of an infection? Also, wouldn't it be just as likely to die from lead poisoning? Seems to me that the concept is just plain crap... litterally!

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by BeefyBeefo

Place the shots and you're fine with just about anything in my opinion.

True, but have you ever tried to place your shots when the target is moving at you AND you know that your a$$ is DEAD if you don't get the job done?

Talk to the guys who have truly been there and done that. They'll be the first to tell you that unless you have aggressively trained against live targets, shot placement is a tricky thing in a fight. Shooting static paper targets from a firing line at a shooting range does not prepare you for a real-life engagement. That is why you hedge your bets by going with the biggest caliber you can manage in your gun.

Having said that, the 9mm is not an unreasonable compromise caliber (IMHO). It offers you a nice gun for taking to the range with minimum recoil and reasonably affordable ammo, but it will also inflict not unsubstantial damage if you load with some of the more-nasty defensive ammo that is out now.

I would NOT choose a 9mm if I was going into a situation where I know that there is a high likelihood that I am going to use my weapon. But if I had to have only one gun for both home defense and range shooting, then I would consider a 9mm.

Aside from that, if you think that you are so good with your shot placement that a .22 is an acceptable weapon, you should consider a defensive handgun course that includes a force-on-force aspect. It might be an eye opener.

-Jim

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by thunderjohn

If bigger was better, all the PD's and gov't agencies would be carrying 45's. You know what? They don't. And the odds of them needing to shoot someone compared to John Doe citizen is ? Don't know the odds, but it's amazingly high. There are a lot of cowboys on some of these forums that watch too many movies.

But did you actually consider that there is a reason why most LE agencies haven't gone with .45acp? It isn't the caliber, cowboy....

It is because until a few years ago, the only common .45acp-chambered guns were 1911s. And after a spate of accidental discharges with that style of guns, the Powers That Be (i.e. Adminstrators, Bureaucrats, REMFs, whatever) decided they weren't safe for use (note I'm not advocating that position...just explaining).

Combine that with the fact that the Wonder-9s came on the market shortly afterward, and now the average officer could carry 52 rounds of ammo on their belt. The 9mm Sigs, Berettas, and Glocks became the must-have guns.

Then the .40S&W comes along and offers more power with only a small loss of capacity in the same frame size, so the administrators decided that it was even better.

But only recently have hi-cap .45acps shown up that have a non-1911 form factor and a reasonable grip size (Glock 21/21SF and Springfield XD).

As for the people who use their guns NOT choosing .45...what about FBI HRT, LAPD SWAT and SIS, and Marine Force Recon? They all are in a position to appreciate what does and does not work, and they have chosen .45acp as their handgun caliber. Heck, a father of one of my son's classmates is local PD, and says that they have transitioned to the Glock 21.

Bureaucracies move slowly, but the wheels are starting to turn.

So, be careful what you're cyber-spitting your tobacco juice on there, partner...

[Brush-Wolf-Lady]

Originally Posted by Dozer

Where is that dead horse? Anyways, since all your "research" has led you to shot placement, a .22 will get you way more rounds than 9mm. Maybe 10x as many. I don't think people are digging on you because of your situation but because you claim to have found the definite answer to an ongoing debate without any data. END ALL .

Just enjoy the shoot.

Is this directed at me?

I'd rather shoot a BG with a 9mm gold dot ANY DAY over a .22. The OP asked about ammo costs, and 9mm is cheaper of the "big 3", so I was showing that 9mm gold dots can and do cause enough damage in deer and fox flesh/bone, so it would be good enough for the budget minded. I like to shoot too, and .45's are much more money per box. I'd have no problem trusting my 9mm XD sub in self defense.

Now a .22 in the head at close range for the assassin- fine, but I use .22's to assassinate raccoons. Some mob guy with a thick skull was once shot 3 times with a .22 at close range and the bullets didn't even penetrate the skull. Yes the .22 solid point to a raccoon's head is totally kickass with the damage it does, but they have a rather thin and small skull and weigh 10-30 pounds.