The End All on 9MM's

[rogerxd45]

a 9mm with moedern hollow points will work just fine. but i really like the 40 i think its the best of both worlds.
most of the bad stuff you hear about 9mms is the fact that the military has to use FMJ and in that situation isnt ideal but if they could use JHP they wouldnt have a problem.

and if i were a hitman a 22lr with a suppressor would be my choice

[mif_slim]

I would get a 45, then do a conversion for a 9mm. If I knew that XD's could do that in 02' I would of gotten a 45 instead.. but hey, i love my 40!

[GlockConvert]

So my question is that if your swat cop says they can stop someone with 9mm in two shots why are they carrying 40, 45, mp5's, 223...? NYPD's study of their MOS indicate that with autoloaders their officers are shooting 8 rounds per shooting. The data is pretty old but still valid. The street wisdom you are getting is not backed by the evidence.

I'm going to climb up on my soapbox just a little. Stopping power, knock down power, 94 % one stop shots out of pistols are not backed by any rigorous science. The plural of anecdote is not evidence. While anecdotes can be insightful, they should be taken with a huge grain of salt. So should gun rags, internet posts (this one included)... If you assume that you are going to stop someone with two shots (assuming you get 100 percent hits -which is about 5 times as good as most cops in shootings) you are quite likely to be disappointed. If you have good bullets, if they perform as designed, if you get good hits, if they penetrate, two shots may be enough. They most likely won’t be. Handgun rounds are relatively anemic. They destroy and injure by drilling holes. With a determined opponent you are going to have to get a CNS hit, destroy a major load baring structure (unlikely with handguns) or put enough holes into someone that they lose enough blood pressure to stop. I have carried 9mm, 357sig, and 45. 45 is less dependent on bullet design to perform well (9mm may expand, 45 ACP will not shrink). Unlike some of the other posters, I have a lot of doubt about what will happen to the badguy who takes a couple of rounds. I carry a 45 as often as I can but my kahr with 127gr +p+ sees its share of hip time. At the end of it all the following factors are most important (IMHO)

· Where you hit em
· How many times you hit em
· What you hit em with
· How they feel about being hit

I’d much rather have a really good gunman that is well trained and well equipped with a 9mm then some gun store commando with a Les Baer 45 with me in a dark alley anytime. Go with 9mm if that is what is going to allow you to shoot more and train harder. Just do it knowing that even with good bullets you should be prepared to shoot and shoot and shoot, until the target is down or runs away. It may be round 5 that does it and it may be round 15.

[agalindo]

Originally Posted by mif_slim

I would get a 45, then do a conversion for a 9mm. If I knew that XD's could do that in 02' I would of gotten a 45 instead.. but hey, i love my 40!

You can't convert a .45 to 9mm or .40.

[blindpig]

Originally Posted by bigwilly11189

The other reason teh .22 was preferred is the fact that it has enough energy to enter the body but not enough to exit so it richochet's around inside the body penetrating organ after organ and doing serious damage.

Or, maybe not.

[mif_slim]

Originally Posted by GlockConvert

If you assume that you are going to stop someone with two shots (assuming you get 100 percent hits -which is about 5 times as good as most cops in shootings) you are quite likely to be disappointed.

Im going to have to say that not ALL cops are good shooters. I've shot with some cops around the area here and I have better groupings then them. I shot with my instructor for a pistol defense class and he said I shoot better then about 80% of the law enforcements he trains. Then, not just that, after my class, he had a girl who took beginners handgun course shoot, she shot well..he had a officers come over and shot with her, she out shot him in a grouping shot and, in a little course my instructor setup, she shot better then him too...just thought I'd share my experience.

[jcabin]

Originally Posted by GlockConvert

At the end of it all the following factors are most important (IMHO)

· Where you hit em
· How many times you hit em
· What you hit em with
· How they feel about being hit

I’d much rather have a really good gunman that is well trained and well equipped with a 9mm then some gun store commando with a Les Baer 45 with me in a dark alley anytime. Go with 9mm if that is what is going to allow you to shoot more and train harder. Just do it knowing that even with good bullets you should be prepared to shoot and shoot and shoot, until the target is down or runs away. It may be round 5 that does it and it may be round 15.

first of all theyre just saying, i would never just fire 2 rounds and leave it at that. but i do agree with what youre sayin at the end of it all. those 4 points are the source of it all.
even if you dont land critical hits, with 16 rounds in a 9mm if you land atleast half of those shots anywhere on the torso the target is immobilized unless the target is extremely juiced out on some highly potent drugs
im a pretty solid shot so if ive got 16 rounds i imagine 15 of them are gunna hit him in the chest and the 16th might graze his eye socket and go inbetween his eyes.. of course if i think i have the situation under control but feel i need to shoot to survive, if the assailant has a knife, ill take his legs out if he keeps coming ill kill him, gun threat or multiple assailants would result in total kill on each target.
i just need to know what type of ammo to carry for practice and self defense.

[Brush-Wolf-Lady]

Heres my study on 9mm gold dot +p hp and what it does to dead deer flesh and how it expands in both deer flesh and bone, and expansion in soft tissues.

This was fired into all soft tissues, 4 skinned foxes stacked on eachother, and it exited into the dirt below. Fox ribs are small enough to be a "soft tissue". It is shown on a penny.


These were fired into deer necks and hit the thick neck bones as well, penetration was approx 3.5 inches with the bone being well cut through and just shredded.







flesh damage in 1 deer neck...



Conclusion is that these would make a mess inside a bad guys chest cavity( no thick neck bones in there either, so would penetrate well), and be just as good as a .40 or .45, though I am biased towards .40's being a bit more kickass, and .45 would be similar damage to a .40 . The .40 or .45 might get the BG down a few seconds sooner or be more effective in timing per seconds on a 300 pound BG, with a few less shots. However you can shoot someone in the head with any caliber and stop them in thier tracks, so it's all shot placement anyway.

[ForTehNguyen]

penetration is the best characteristic of incapacitating ability of a bullet, next is shot placement but isnt as reliable to pull off as penetration. Theres a reason the preferred caliber of hitmen is the .22, all shot placement and good penetration. They dont need .45

[BanditSRT8]

Originally Posted by jcabin

well guys, ive been doing research for about a year now on and off, i was really intent on getting a 45 caliber xd. however being a college student and not having the money to spend the higher amount on 45 ammo, im going to opt for the 9mm, for several reasons. 9mm ammo is half the price of the 45, im going to be heading down probably weekly to practice at the range with my friends this summer, and i can forsee myself saving the price of an entire hand gun over the course of the summer by way of ammo expense, choosing the 9mm over the 45. On the issue of self defense, ive dont extensive research and spoken with people ranging from friends and family to police and SWAT officers, and it seems pretty consistant in their response to my question, 45 or 9mm? the response being something along these lines, "the 45 will drop a man with a shot or two, but so will a 9mm if you have nice shot placement." therefore i consider myself a pretty decent shot and only plan on improving over the summer. i feel confident in defending myself with a 9mm, also you get alot more rounds in each clip it seems to me the 9mm is the all around, overall best choice, especially for a first time owner who plans to practice at range weekly and carry daily. anyways, the title of this thread is such because i want all the info you guys can throw at me in response to my post, thanks for everything guys!!

PLEASE... spend more time studying, and more money on that education. Judging by your syntax (or lack thereof) you REALLY need it.

'Nuff said.