Muzzle flip thoughts - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Neomet · 11-23-2006, 11:46 AM

OK all you physics wizards and competetive shooters I've got a question for ya.

Muzzle flip is the result of the fact that our thumb is below the bore axis thereby making the gun want to pivot around that point. Got that part. Now weight equals inertia which should reduce the flip but of course nobody wants to hang a five pound plate out on the end of their barrel as it makes for rather slow transitions. Would it not be a good idea to weight the bottom of the mag to get the same effect? The extra weight would be as far from the axis of rotation as possible and since it is literally right in the palm of the hand the gun should not feel noseheavy.

Dang, I wish I hadn't slept through physics class.

Neomet · 11-23-2006, 12:38 PM

btt

SoCalXD · 11-23-2006, 12:42 PM

I'll ask my Girlfriend today when I see her for Thanksgiving. She a one of those brainy types with a degree in phyics from UC.

The Knight Of Light · 11-23-2006, 12:43 PM

OK OK!! I'll bite!

Weight should be at the front because the magazine has a constant change to its inherent weight. It will never be the same from one part of the stage to the next. A muzzle weighted gun keep everything consistant and also keeps the gun from pivoting on the web of your strong hand. It gives a more straight back push instead of lifting the muzzle in the air. Also the lighter the slide the more speed the slide will have, the faster and shorter the lift will be. THe muzzle comes back to the target much faster.

HTOWN stunna · 11-23-2006, 01:00 PM

yup, what KOL said, when i load my 30 rd mag for my S&W mod59 the muzzle flip is worse (not much but noticeable

thomye · 11-23-2006, 01:34 PM

it's more than what KOL said. weight at the muzzle works directly against the flip or the inertia however at the magazine, it's would only help a fraction because the weight works at roughly 45 degrees of the working inertia. The angles aren't exact but you get my point.

muzzle want to go virtically up but you hand makes it work at a curve towards the shooter. The initial inertia is virtical due to the pivot point. if you wanted the weight to work exactly the same way on the mag, the counter weight should pull towards the shooter (horizontally). a weight based on gravity doesn't do that. it works towards the ground which is pretty inefficient at the mag to help against muzzle flip. in fact, i'd venture to say that you'd still get muzzle flip (slight) even if you had 100lbs on mag.

think of a circle. if it were to turn clockwise, the weight would work best at 9 O'clock (due to gravity). at 6 O'clock, it would help but only have a swing affect. it would slow it down but not stop. you would have to have a lot of weight. probably 10 times more than at 9 o'clock. in fact, if the weight isn't exatly 6 o'clock and it's 5:30. then it might increase muzzle flip. too risky if you ask me.

i'm no physics guy but when i draw it out and apply some geometry to it, that's what i get.

AKM · 11-23-2006, 01:41 PM

Remember that adding weight to reduce flip also results in increased time to pull the muzzle down out of recoil. A compensator or porting helps alot. My 460 Rowland with compensator has virtually no muzzle flip even though it's darn near 44mag power.

A perfect solution would be a pistol that puts the bore axis directly in line with the wrist. I seem to remember seeing something like that years ago. Funky looking thing.
.

The Knight Of Light · 11-23-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomye

it's more than what KOL said. weight at the muzzle works directly against the flip

Mine was just quick and dirty. Thanks for cleaning it up a bit!

This muzzle weighted thing must be why SPS came up with this goofy looking pistola.

Neomet · 11-23-2006, 01:52 PM

Hmmm, so I guess I should take those depleted uranium basepads off my magazines before the superglue sets huh?

KOL what are you doing holding out on me and making me ask twice?

Well off to stuff myself. In preparation all I have had to eat today is a couple crackers. Fois gras is gonna have nuthin on me.

Neomet · 11-23-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Knight Of Light

Mine was just quick and dirty. Thanks for cleaning it up a bit!

This muzzle weighted thing must be why SPS came up with this goofy looking pistola.

Oh, that is buttass ugly. I wouldn't be seen with that if it made me shoot like TGO. Well, maby then....

11-23-2006, 11:46 AM	#1
Neomet XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Made it to Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,402	Muzzle flip thoughts OK all you physics wizards and competetive shooters I've got a question for ya. Muzzle flip is the result of the fact that our thumb is below the bore axis thereby making the gun want to pivot around that point. Got that part. Now weight equals inertia which should reduce the flip but of course nobody wants to hang a five pound plate out on the end of their barrel as it makes for rather slow transitions. Would it not be a good idea to weight the bottom of the mag to get the same effect? The extra weight would be as far from the axis of rotation as possible and since it is literally right in the palm of the hand the gun should not feel noseheavy. Dang, I wish I hadn't slept through physics class. __________________ Who said that? Who the freak said that? Who's the slimy little communist $hit, twinkle-toed rocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy freaking godmother said it. Out-freaking-standing. I will PT you all until you freaking die!

11-23-2006, 12:38 PM	#2
Neomet XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Made it to Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,402	btt __________________ Who said that? Who the freak said that? Who's the slimy little communist $hit, twinkle-toed rocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy freaking godmother said it. Out-freaking-standing. I will PT you all until you freaking die!

11-23-2006, 12:42 PM	#3
SoCalXD XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 516	I'll ask my Girlfriend today when I see her for Thanksgiving. She a one of those brainy types with a degree in phyics from UC. __________________ My XD-40's: Duty, IDPA & Home-Defense: Tactical: Springer Trigger & Slide Release, Dawson Adj. Tritium Sights, Full Cobra Chrome, CC Mag Release, D.G.R., 16# Spring, Magloc Magwell w/full beveling, Pachmayr Mag Bumpers, Insight 3X w/contured remote. EFK 9mm Conversion Barrel for IDPA & Training. CCW: SC: Springer Trigger & Slide Release, TFOs, Canyon Creek Mag Release, Pearce Extensions, Sand Decal Grips.

11-23-2006, 12:43 PM	#4
The Knight Of Light XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 8,839 Blog Entries: 12	OK OK!! I'll bite! Weight should be at the front because the magazine has a constant change to its inherent weight. It will never be the same from one part of the stage to the next. A muzzle weighted gun keep everything consistant and also keeps the gun from pivoting on the web of your strong hand. It gives a more straight back push instead of lifting the muzzle in the air. Also the lighter the slide the more speed the slide will have, the faster and shorter the lift will be. THe muzzle comes back to the target much faster. __________________ No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. USPSA #L3077 What a great number!!! http://theknightoflight.blogspot.com/ Creator of TOP 'O' THE PAGE!!! Moose Fight

11-23-2006, 01:00 PM	#5
HTOWN stunna XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alpine Texas Posts: 1,534	yup, what KOL said, when i load my 30 rd mag for my S&W mod59 the muzzle flip is worse (not much but noticeable __________________ The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist. - George Bernard Shaw

11-23-2006, 01:34 PM	#6
thomye XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: OC, California Posts: 761	it's more than what KOL said. weight at the muzzle works directly against the flip or the inertia however at the magazine, it's would only help a fraction because the weight works at roughly 45 degrees of the working inertia. The angles aren't exact but you get my point. muzzle want to go virtically up but you hand makes it work at a curve towards the shooter. The initial inertia is virtical due to the pivot point. if you wanted the weight to work exactly the same way on the mag, the counter weight should pull towards the shooter (horizontally). a weight based on gravity doesn't do that. it works towards the ground which is pretty inefficient at the mag to help against muzzle flip. in fact, i'd venture to say that you'd still get muzzle flip (slight) even if you had 100lbs on mag. think of a circle. if it were to turn clockwise, the weight would work best at 9 O'clock (due to gravity). at 6 O'clock, it would help but only have a swing affect. it would slow it down but not stop. you would have to have a lot of weight. probably 10 times more than at 9 o'clock. in fact, if the weight isn't exatly 6 o'clock and it's 5:30. then it might increase muzzle flip. too risky if you ask me. i'm no physics guy but when i draw it out and apply some geometry to it, that's what i get. __________________ Next XD-45 SC "still waiting" STI 2011 Last edited by thomye; 11-23-2006 at 01:43 PM.

11-23-2006, 01:41 PM	#7
AKM XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,511	Remember that adding weight to reduce flip also results in increased time to pull the muzzle down out of recoil. A compensator or porting helps alot. My 460 Rowland with compensator has virtually no muzzle flip even though it's darn near 44mag power. A perfect solution would be a pistol that puts the bore axis directly in line with the wrist. I seem to remember seeing something like that years ago. Funky looking thing. . __________________ Liviu Librescu - În veci pomenirea lui. U.S. Army/Marine Snipers - Making the World a Better Place, 175 grains at a time.

11-23-2006, 01:52 PM	#9
Neomet XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Made it to Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,402	Hmmm, so I guess I should take those depleted uranium basepads off my magazines before the superglue sets huh? KOL what are you doing holding out on me and making me ask twice? Well off to stuff myself. In preparation all I have had to eat today is a couple crackers. Fois gras is gonna have nuthin on me. __________________ Who said that? Who the freak said that? Who's the slimy little communist $hit, twinkle-toed rocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy freaking godmother said it. Out-freaking-standing. I will PT you all until you freaking die!

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