Firing pin indicator!?!

[sloan1919]

Maybe this is a simple question already addressed somewhere else but why is there a need for a firing pin indicator and a loaded chamber indicator?? Maybe I don't get it but isn't it true that if the loaded chamber indicator is up isn't the firing pin indicator always going to be engaged?? If it were me I would prefer to have the loaded chamber indicator where the firing pin indicator is; the position is more usefully at night in the dark than trying to feel the top of the gun. I would just do away with the firing pin indicator all together. Can someone explain what is the need for the f. p. indicator other than dry firing. I see it like this, in a loaded gun situation I know the firing pin is engaged if the loaded chamber indicator is up... therefore no useful information. In an unloaded situation, if the loaded chamber indicator is down I know if I pull the trigger the gun is not going to go bang so why would I care what the status of the firing pin?? Therefore no useful information! someone correct me if I a wrong!

Ray

[gsh341]

The chamber has a round and the firing pin indicator is down.... sounds like a snap cap or dud in the chamber. Or possibly a stuck loaded chamber indicator, but I'd bet on the dud first.

[XDJON]

Would you go to a fight without a backup weapon? I think it is just good redundency. If one of the indicators is faulty the other should still be good.

[sloan1919]

Originally Posted by XDJON

Would you go to a fight without a backup weapon? I think it is just good redundency. If one of the indicators is faulty the other should still be good.

There is no redundency... They are not testing the same thing and one is dependent on the other... for example even if my loaded chamber indicator was broken the firing pin being engaged does not answer the million dollar question... will the gun go bang if the trigger is pulled! And if loaded chamber indicator is engage but the firing pin is not... I would throw the gun at my attacker because obivously this is not a possible combination and my XD must be broken. lol

Ray

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by sloan1919

Can someone explain what is the need for the f. p. indicator other than dry firing. I see it like this, in a loaded gun situation I know the firing pin is engaged if the loaded chamber indicator is up... therefore no useful information. In an unloaded situation, if the loaded chamber indicator is down I know if I pull the trigger the gun is not going to go bang so why would I care what the status of the firing pin?? Therefore no useful information! someone correct me if I a wrong!

Ray

Not so fast Ray. If the loaded chamber indicator is down are you REALLY sure that the weapon is unloaded? Are you willing to bet your life, or someone else's life on it? If you have a XD-40 and accidentally put a 9mm round in the mag you might think the weapon is unloaded because the loaded chamber indicator isn't up (or all the way up. I tried it with mine and the loaded chamber indicator barely moves) but it may still fire. NEVER use the loaded chamber indicator to determine if the weapon is unloaded. It will tell you if the weapon is properly loaded ONLY.

Always visually check for a empty mag well AND an empty chamber. Then point the weapon in a safe direction (down range or into the ground away from others) and pull the trigger to release the striker. Only then can you be sure the weapon is unloaded. But, still treat it as if it is loaded.

[sloan1919]

Originally Posted by gsh341

Not so fast Ray. If the loaded chamber indicator is down are you REALLY sure that the weapon is unloaded? Are you willing to bet your life, or someone else's life on it? If you have a XD-40 and accidentally put a 9mm round in the mag you might think the weapon is unloaded because the loaded chamber indicator isn't up (or all the way up. I tried it with mine and the loaded chamber indicator barely moves) but it may still fire. NEVER use the loaded chamber indicator to determine if the weapon is unloaded. It will tell you if the weapon is properly loaded ONLY.

Always visually check for a empty mag well AND an empty chamber. Then point the weapon in a safe direction (down range or into the ground away from others) and pull the trigger to release the striker. Only then can you be sure the weapon is unloaded. But, still treat it as if it is loaded.

Your right but thats not what I am getting at. I am not saying or implying that I use the loaded chamber indicator as a way to determine the status of my gun when I am using it in a NON "someone's breaking in my house and I can't remember if I racked the slide before I went to sleep but I don't want to turn on the lights to check" type of event. LOL... I always rely on the good old fashion , mag out and visual slide inspection!

What I am trying to get at is the worth of the firing pin indicator in its intended usage. I don't think there is a point of it and the loaded chamber indicator. They don't make logical sense together and only the loaded chamber indicator provides any useful information. Basically stated: if the L. C indicator is up then F. P. indicator MUST be UP also... if L.C. indicator is down then F. P. indicator status DOES NOT matter, because gun still won't go bang. If these conditions are true there is no point to check both because you can deduce the status of the F.P. indicator based on the status of the L.C. indicator. Unless someone can show me differently what useful information did I get from the F. P. indicator?

[Petrolero]

Originally Posted by sloan1919

Your right but thats not what I am getting at. I am not saying or implying that I use the loaded chamber indicator as a way to determine the status of my gun when I am using it in a NON "someone's breaking in my house and I can't remember if I racked the slide before I went to sleep but I don't want to turn on the lights to check" type of event. LOL... I always rely on the good old fashion , mag out and visual slide inspection!

What I am trying to get at is the worth of the firing pin indicator in its intended usage. I don't think there is a point of it and the loaded chamber indicator. They don't make logical sense together and only the loaded chamber indicator provides any useful information. Basically stated: if the L. C indicator is up then F. P. indicator MUST be UP also... if L.C. indicator is down then F. P. indicator status DOES NOT matter, because gun still won't go bang. If these conditions are true there is no point to check both because you can deduce the status of the F.P. indicator based on the status of the L.C. indicator. Unless someone can show me differently what unlessful information did I get from the F. P. indicator?

They already showed you several situations in which LCI/FPI can be up and in, respectively.

You fire on a dud round or on a snap cap and they will be up and in.

So just because something is in the chamber does not have to mean the gun is cocked.

I understand your point that in most situations it is redundant. But so what? So are the safeties. The FPI does serve a purpose.

[sloan1919]

Originally Posted by Petrolero

They already showed you several situations in which LCI/FPI can be up and in, respectively.

You fire on a dud round or on a snap cap and they will be up and in.

So just because something is in the chamber does not have to mean the gun is cocked.

I understand your point that in most situations it is redundant. But so what? So are the safeties. The FPI does serve a purpose.

I totally understand in the dry firing situation this is possible(as I stated in the first post). A better way to ask my question would be "what is the tactical benefit of the FPI not already given by the LCI?" I guess what is confusing is that when I purchased my XD I read in the descriptive literature that the FPI was made so that the user could check its status in the dark by touch. I assumed that if anyone was checking the FPI status in the dark it would be to some tactical advantage. So what is this advantage? In the case of the dud round, the trigger would have to be pulled first to get to the situation where the LCI is up and FPI is down. So you wouldn't be picking the gun up in this condition, it would only arrive there directly after a trigger pull;the user holding the XD which failed to fire with the slide closed would know to rack the slide without having to check FPI or the LCI. Just a matter of logic... there was a chambered round when I picked up the gun, the gun didn't fire(no felt recoil or bang) , the slide is closed therefore dud and I must rack the slide......

Maybe there is another use for it that I am just not aware of... if so someone please tell me I would like to learn as much as possible.

Thanks,

Ray

[TobyU]

Originally Posted by sloan1919

Your right but thats not what I am getting at. I am not saying or implying that I use the loaded chamber indicator as a way to determine the status of my gun when I am using it in a NON "someone's breaking in my house and I can't remember if I racked the slide before I went to sleep but I don't want to turn on the lights to check" type of event. LOL... I always rely on the good old fashion , mag out and visual slide inspection!

What I am trying to get at is that the worth of the firing pin indicator in its intended usage. I don't think there is a point of it and the loaded chamber indicator. They don't make logical sense together and only the loaded chamber indicator provides any useful information. Basically stated: if the L. C indicator is up then F. P. indicator MUST be UP also... if L.C. indicator is down then F. P. indicator status DOES NOT matter, because gun still won't go bang. If these conditions are true I there is no point to check both because you can deduce the status of the F.P. indicator based on the status of the L.C. indicator. Unless someone can show me differently what unlessful information did I get from the F. P. indicator?

I agree with you Ray. I like for a handgun to have a loaded chamber indicator. The firing pin status is irrelevant. If there is a round in the chamber, it is supposed to go bang when I pull the trigger. I think most manufacturers put the loaded chamber indicator either on the side or top near where the XDs is.
The Steyr M9, M40, S9 and S40 and the M series replacement M1A I think, has the best I have seen...The loaded chamber indicator is on the rear in the same spot as the XD FP indicator. If you feel it protruding, there is a round in the chamber. A little confusing when you own and handle both often. When I unload my XD and take the round out of the chamber, the pin is still there (protruding). I have to dry fire to make it go away. The Steyr's indicator goes in as soon as I unload the chamber.
I wish the XD was like the Steyr in this aspect. I still like the XD better though. The Steyr has a tenifer better finish than the older XDs and the S-9 is a perfect size. It is about 1/2 inch longer in the slide than the XD9 SubCompact and 1/2 inch shorter than the Glock 23.
There was a big hoopla a while back about the Steyr safety system.
The XD is safe. So is the Glock. They will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. The have a firing pin block that I believe is part of what is called a drop safety. I think the glock design is even safer due to forward placement instead of at the rear on a offset tab...but they are not going to accidentally discharge. About as much likelihood of a 9mm round sitting on the table going off. Matter of fact simply dropping a round on the floor is MUCH more likely to go off than a glock or XD is without pulling the trigger..
The Steyr is a bit different....not as bad as a cocked and locked 1911, but not too far from. The firing pin is cocked back and ready to slam forward when the sear lets it. There is NO firing pin block that is disengaged by pulling the trigger rearward. It has been claimed that the firing pin is not fully cocked similar to glock...but it is 90% plus cocked. Glocks obviously pull it further back when you pull the trigger. You can find little if any further cocking by the trigger on the Steyr. It is back plenty to ignite the primer if the sear disengages...
If you could separate the slide up from the frame a bit, the sear would release. If mechanically something broke and allowed the sear to drop down even a VERY small amount, the gun would fire....it needs a firing pin block like the Glock or XD. I have still carried the S9 many times but I will never consider it as safe as the XD or Glock.
Sorry to hi-jack the topic. I don't want to point out another product with a desired feature without pointing out what I think is a design short coming.

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by sloan1919

if the L. C indicator is up then F. P. indicator MUST be UP also...

Not if the round was a dud, the chamber has a snap cap in it, or the LC indicator is stuck.

Originally Posted by sloan1919

if L.C. indicator is down then F. P. indicator status DOES NOT matter, because gun still won't go bang.

I have already explained that a 9mm round in a XD-40 will make the LC indicator appear down, but the weapon may still go bang! Several members have both XD-9s and XD-40s. It is not inconceivable to accidentally load the wrong mag!

By the way, what does it hurt to have both? Reliability is not compromised and cost is not significantly increased, so why not?