Self Defence Distance ???

[rgeliske]

Many years ago when training for personal defense I remember demonstrations the an assailant can cover 21' before you can fire the first shot. This was done with experienced shooters and the gun upholstered held down nest to the leg. This is the reason many self defense classes use 7 yards as a practice range.

[R/T Rick]

I practice using 7" targets printed on 11"x8.5" paper (typical office/school/writing sized paper) @ 21' making 10 shot groupings between 3"-6"+. If you simply hit the paper, whatever BG that is probably going to die. Holding the top of the paper to my collar bone covers my heart and lungs and I'm smaller than the average man in terms of chest and waist measurements. Hitting within the 7" circle is a headshot.

The other posters have posted awesome info and it would be beneficial to listen to it. Also, take a Self Defence course(s) so help you learn different grips and ways to handle a gun and practice, practice, practice especially with the guns you will use in SD to be completely familiar with their operations and personalities. I know I need to learn to shoot left handed since when I carry in my truck, I clip my gun on the cubby hole on the driver side door so it's out of sight when I'm sitting in the driver seat from all viewing angles outside the cab and it's readily accessible. But it leaves me to shoot left handed when I'm a right handed shooter.

[carhartt]

Originally Posted by psehorne

I've read experts who say this is not the thing to do (Ayoob, for instance). Ayoob says you need to get your sight up into your tunnel vision.... since more than likely in a real-life encounter you will be nervous, heart pumping, adrenalin flowing, experiencing tunnel vision, and shooting "shooting from the hip" can miss by three or four feet even at short range. You are unlikely to develop muscle memory that would be useful in pointing accurately with the sight out of view.

Ayoob suggests practicing getting the front sight up in your tunnel vision and on the target... you don't have to align the rear sight and the front sight, but you must get the front site up into your tunnel vision.

Paraphrasing from Ayoob's book StressFire

I dont necessarily mean shooting from the hip, I mean getting the gun up in your view but not taking the time to acquire the front sight and get that "perfect" shot.

note: I dont claim to be an expert, and have never seen combat. This was just something that made sense and I have heard it from multiple LEO's. Just my $.02

[Bluto]

When I bought my second carry gun, (Bersa Thunder .380) one of the things that I liked about the gun is that the grip angle is the same angle as my XD9 sc. It's my belief that the gun/s that you plan on carrying should be alike in that matter. Although the .380 might be different in caliber, and the over all design of the Bersa might be different than the XD9sc it has that very familiar feel to it none the less do to the grip angle.
My KT P3at has a diffent grip angle but that gun is just for when it's real up close and personal. Just point and shoot.

[dsolie]

A very good practice drill, and one I use often is a close encounter draw while retreating.

At 3-5 yards a suspect can be on top of you before you even get your gun out of the holster. Even worse if he is literally in your face.

Find a range, or quarry where you can do close quarter shoots. Start off with the target a few feet from you (reachable distance), push against the target with your weak hand (as if to push the intruder away), as you are taking 2-3 large steps back, while drawing your pistol and firing on the target. This is a great drill to practice up close and personal scenarios.

(edit) PLEASE only do this drill in a safe place to shoot. Make sure there are no tripping obstacles behind you.. And as ALWAYS, be aware fo your surroundings.

[jj79]

Originally Posted by GreySmoke

Ok I'm just a dumb newbie but I am very confused with the distances targets are designed for, and that we all practice. I dont know about your homes but there is no room in my house longer than 25 feet. If I am truly practicing for home self defense I would think I should practice getting to that 1-2" group at 25ft or less. Anything more is surely not SD anyway... Comments?

hey greysmoke...

you are right about distances in your home... however, a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) a nice big silhouette trgt represents a "perfect world". however, if you actually have to shoot in your home, you have to assume the BG will be at least partially behind cover/obstructed from view...which presents a MUCH smaller target.

2) if you're preparing for on-the-street scenarios, stats say those will be at approximately 3-5 feet.

3) as someone else stated, I wouldn't worry about groups, as much as presentation, trigger control, and front sight acquisition. while I've never been there myself, I can pretty much guarantee that nobody prints good groups while under fire.


all that said, your question was about range, so here's my honest opinion on that: If you train for the worst-case scenario, then a better one will just be a bonus.

what I mean is, if you are getting good, center-mass hits at 15-20 yds, then 5-7 yards is gonna be a walk in the park.

while it's highly unlikely you'll have a self-defense shoot at across-the-street ranges, it is possible, say if you were being fired upon by an assailant. while gun battles in the street are highly unlikely...they are still possible, so we should train to be ready.

if you are prepared/able to get good, fast hits on target from 15 yards or so, then you will be more than ready for a scenario at closer ranges.

try it next time you're at the range: go to 15 yards, shoot until you're getting good hits at that range...then move to 7 yards. you'll see what I mean.

a few decades ago, many police officers had to shoot portions of qualifiers at 50 yards. I think the reasoning behind that was what I've described above...

now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do close-range practice as well...of course you should. however, I think it's a really good idea to incorporate a good amount of longer range shooting. it'll pay off in the long run...

just my opinion, but hope this helps...


-JJ

[jj79]

Originally Posted by carhartt

...You also want to make sure that you can reflex shoot. That is to say, draw and shoot without using the sights. You dont really need this for long distance, but 5-10 yds.

Originally Posted by psehorne

I've read experts who say this is not the thing to do (Ayoob, for instance).

Originally Posted by carhartt

I dont necessarily mean shooting from the hip, I mean getting the gun up in your view but not taking the time to acquire the front sight and get that "perfect" shot.

This was just something that made sense and I have heard it from multiple LEO's.

I think BOTH of you guys are probably right to a certain extent...

I'd agree w/psehorne...most experts advise against reflex/point shooting.

but I'd also agree that point shooting does have it's place...that would be: close range, with absolutely no hope of getting the sights lined up. (I.E., the whole Tueller drill scenario.)

myself, I find that I kind of naturally transition to point shooting inside approx. 3-4 yards. just kind of happens on it's own...especially when running drills at speed.

so, for me anyway, the limits on point shooting would be about 4 yards or less, and having less than 1.5 seconds to get a shot off. anything else needs to be sighted/aimed.

I think the key to the whole point shooting debate is whenever possible, use sighted fire.

just my 2 cents...


-JJ

[Joeywhat]

"SD distance" is the distance where the BG is attacking you. That could be 3" or 100 yards...or longer. If someone's throwing lead your way from 100 yards away, it's still self defense. Maybe you can get out of the way, maybe you can't...

You shouldn't limit yourself to set distances to practice. Practice up close, practice at 100 yards...YES that means with your handgun. It's not that hard. Using steel is great at 25+ yards. If you can hit the target at 100 yards, you can hit it at 25 yards...

[Joeywhat]

In regards to point shooting...practice using the sights and you'll use the sights. At 5 yards I can draw my gun and get two COM hits in less then 1.5 seconds. I don't even really practice that too often, either. Doing a failure drill in less then 1.5 seconds is not that hard if you practice. AND that's using the sights. The second COM shot doesn't get a new sight picture, but the first one does...and if going for a head shot that gets another sight picture as well.

Point shooting is great when you're really up close and personal. At that point it's really hard to miss. But if you have the chance to use your sights USE them...don't rely in 'instincts' and all that BS when you have an aiming tool at your disposal.

[Reepicheep]

Originally Posted by Joeywhat

"SD distance" is the distance where the BG is attacking you. That could be 3" or 100 yards...or longer. If someone's throwing lead your way from 100 yards away, it's still self defense. Maybe you can get out of the way, maybe you can't...

You shouldn't limit yourself to set distances to practice. Practice up close, practice at 100 yards...YES that means with your handgun. It's not that hard. Using steel is great at 25+ yards. If you can hit the target at 100 yards, you can hit it at 25 yards...

Bingo! Don't focus on one scenario to the exclusion of all others. Think about things like "I'm in the Mall and some guy starts shooting the place up". If you're 30yds away, can you make a shot on him so you can get your family past him and out to safety?

I think this scenario is more and more likely these days.

Joey - I see you over at MGO too! Nice to see a familiar face over here as well.