Conceal carry can be a failure

[ninesecond95]

I CC and had my short tour in the military. That being said I have not had specific self defnese training and realize that at this point I would need to have SOME advance warning to be efficient. I would like to take some kind of course but in the meantime I try and be aware of my surroundings and maintain Condition One. I hope to never have to draw, but if I ever do I wil do as necessary.

[AlwaysLearning]

Wow I loved all the responses I was not sure how people would react to this topic. I believe the responses were exactly what I was hoping for. I plan on taking a professional coarse prior to attaining a conceal carry license (still hate that I need a license for my Second Amendment RIGHT). My biggest concern is how I will evaluate the course to make sure it is a great educational opportunity. I realize that just because I grew up with guns and have been shooting since I could walk doesn't make me a self defense expert with guns.

[rtparso]

Originally Posted by AlwaysLearning

Wow I loved all the responses I was not sure how people would react to this topic. I believe the responses were exactly what I was hoping for. I plan on taking a professional coarse prior to attaining a conceal carry license (still hate that I need a license for my Second Amendment RIGHT). My biggest concern is how I will evaluate the course to make sure it is a great educational opportunity. I realize that just because I grew up with guns and have been shooting since I could walk doesn't make me a self defense expert with guns.

A lot of being ready for CC (or any use of a defensive weapon) requires self searching to decide when and were you are willing and capable to use a weapon. I also have taken some defensive pistol training and shoot IDPA.

[Russ7777]

[QUOTE=wgedwards;3258265]+1^^^^
Unless you have been trained for defensive carry -- military, LEO, or certified firearms program that included real world scenarios with many hours of firing your weapon under supervision -- you are kidding yourself that you will be successful in protecting yourself and you family. Even highly trained police officers are killed in situations that were "under control." According to the statistics, the average gun fight involves, three shots, at three yards or less, in three seconds, at three in the morning.

Wyatt Earp said it best, the sure way to win a gun fight is to not show up![/QUOTE

So if I am kidding myself thinking I can defend myself with concealed weapon, how successful will I be in the same situation completely unarmed?

[Russ7777]

I am sure you have most likely heard the wise proverb: if you need surgery; get the doctor that has done the surgery thousands of times, instead of the one who has done it twice
Practice is what makes one good. I strongly believe a person who wants to carry should be shooting regularly and practicing / studying defensive tactics regularly.
I, unfortunately, live in an area where formal classes or training beyond the cpl class is hard to come by. I read all the articles I can find on defensive handgunning and study the tactics they suggest.


Do any of you know if there are weighted magazines available for practice? I would like to find a dummy magazine that has the weight of a fully loaded mag, so I can practice drawing my weapon at the weight (minus one in the chamber) it is when fully loaded.

[daisychain11B]

I'm military too (Army Infantry go 11 series!!) and a former LEO. I've had a pretty wide range or training with the exception being attending schools out of my own pocket. After I'm finished getting my second college degree and begin working full-time I'd love to go do some respectable classes in the future. Airsoft/paintball whatever... I've done simunitions in both the Army and LEO and it's the best force on force training you can get besides a real two way range. The biggest thing is discovering how quickly it all happens, when it goes s*** side up it goes bad fast. The biggest thing I've learned in simunitions is that you can and potentially will be wounded if your opfor is any good. My suggestion is get as much training as you can afford. Swallow a large helping of humble pie and go with an open mind. Don't forget some training on saving lives either. The way I see it they should go hand in hand. If you can shoot but not band-aid you're wrong. Take some kind of CLS or similar training.

[Espi]

Originally Posted by daisychain11B

Don't forget some training on saving lives either. The way I see it they should go hand in hand. If you can shoot but not band-aid you're wrong. Take some kind of CLS or similar training.

This is great advice. In the military we must treat the wounded of both friend and foe. As a platoon leader I am always thinking of ways to train my soldiers and this is a great exercise of performing CLS training after wounding an enemy.

[robinsre]

The training situation is one particular pet peeve of mine.

There are really two sides to the equation :

On one hand, buying a $500 gun and a $20 uncle mike's holster, throwing in some hollow point ammunition and strutting around the bar scene does NOT make you safe. I absolutely agree that GOOD information and practice are vital to proficiently using a handgun.

The other side of the equation are the "training goons".

I've had the good fortune to be able to pay to take a handful of "tactical" courses. I've taken at least 2 courses with instructors from the sorts of firearms training "schools" you read about on the gun forums. In my experience there are really three kinds of "tactical" instructors :

The first and most plentiful are the NRA specials. There's nothing wrong with an NRA firearms instructor (I am one myself). The caveat is that you have to know your limits, and teach within those limits. Unfortunately, most of these guys get a false sense of bravado from their NRA certification and start running their mouths off about things they really don't know. They're the guys who are out on the range sweating and breathing hard after setting up 3 target stands...but somehow they are more ready for a defensive encounter than you are. You see them advertising on the side of their pickup trucks and manning stands at gun-shows decked out in 5XL tacticool 5.11 gear. They sometimes have some far removed military experience, which they will remind you of every single time you dare to question ANY bad idea they throw out in the class. They're real sure of themselves, but not really sure of much of anything else. At best they'll teach you nothing useful, at worst taking their class will cause you to develop band firearms handling skills that will need to be overwritten by countless hours of personal practice.

The second type are the "Major School" instructors. They get their credentials by either owning, working for or training under a handful of guys that write books on firearms training, or own one of the big schools in the country. I think most of these instructors grossly overvalue their own time, knowledge and experience. They charge hundreds or thousands of dollars to fly out to B.F.E, sit on a range with a bunch of other rich guys, and pretend that a three day course is going to teach you everything you ever needed....that is until they want you to take their next three day course. And if you DON'T get this training...why a 14 year old girl with a machete could come and carve you to pieces before you could even get your gun out of it's holster. I could go in to specific anecdotes, but suffice it to say that often these individuals are often stuck on one or two good ideas they have developed (or pirated from someone else) and build a whole paradigm of bullshit around a couple of tools they've got in their toolbox. They usually espouse one or a handful of high-dollar firearms or calibers and often belittle or begrudge people who make other choices with very little, or often ANY real world data or experience to back up their assertions. Usually you'll learn and develop decent firearms handling skills in their classes, but you'll end up paying out the nose for something you probably could have learned pretty well by self study and practice.

The biggest problem with these guys is that the myth of top tier professionalism is self-replicating. The guys who teach the classes pump themselves up to their students, who believe it because they WANT to. They WANT to believe it so desperately because they don't want to think they just dropped $2000 on plane tickets, ammo, hotel rooms and tuition to learn from a guy who really doesn't know jack about what it takes to survive a defensive encounter. So these students come back and brag endlessly about the 4 day course they took from the Elite Tactical School of Mall Ninjitsu to folks who haven't had any formal training and suddenly these students start to look like professionals themselves. This causes a host of other people to seek out the same sort of experience, and the cycle starts over.

The final sort of trainers are those that have a whole host of experience and/or a whole toolbox full of good, well thought out ideas. They get their material from real world experience or from sitting down and honestly taking the time to study what works and what doesn't. They don't begrudge anyone using any tool that works. They learn more than they teach. They see every student as an opportunity to take something home themselves. These guys are the best of the best, and they're often hard to find because they usually don't have the bravado to make a full-time living off of teaching people to shoot. The only issue I've ever had with this type of instructor is that those who are often the best at something are not always good at conveying it. These instructors want to teach EVERYONE to perform like a high-speed, low-drag operator. This is simply not practical, realistic or necessary.

In the end, I think that some training is necessary. You simply don't know what you don't know..that's the only reason to ever get another individual involved. I think that practice is inherent to success, just like any other field, but I don't buy the necessity for everyone who wants to protect themselves with a firearm to drop large amounts of cash on "professional" training.

I used to think that way. That's why I took the courses I took, why I spent the money and time, but I always felt like I came out not really having gotten my money's worth. Now I take them because I enjoy them, and because every once in a blue moon I find something I feel like I can add to my toolbox.

You don't need to shoot or move like a Navy SEAL to protect yourself with a handgun. You don't need to have $2500 in equipment, and you certainly don't need to have taken every class from Front Sight or wherever the hell else you want to go. You DO need determination, the willingness to do whatever it takes to survive, the ability to reliably and quickly hit targets at defensive distances, the physical aptitude to move quickly and efficiently, and the common sense to know when it's time to get the hell out of dodge and avoid a fight all-together.

[fxstchewy]

Probably many a time someone has saved themselves by having a firearm and had zero training........you never know.

[ksbsnowowl]

Originally Posted by fxstchewy

Probably many a time someone has saved themselves by having a firearm and had zero training........you never know.

Just look at that Oklahoma widow over New Year's.

That said, training isn't a bad thing.