m16 bolt carrier in an ar15 build. Legal? - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

**mvician** · 09-25-2007, 12:39 AM

"Paul said that Colt is shipping the M16 bolt carrier
in all their 'Match Target' AR15s. However, he said that
the factory was machining the pin slot of said carrier
before it the left production area for installation in the
designed 'Match Target' rifles. That of course means that
the assembly cannot be used as a MG part. He said that
all of the 'Match Target' rifles come with the M16 bolt carrier
(modified)."

Colt continues to neuter their "Match Target" rifles that they market to us "civillans"

i.e. pinned M4 stock, compensator instead of a FH, no bayo lug.
Call back and ask about the LE line up

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR1.../partsfaq.msnw

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121010

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-66150.html

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1975

John A. · 09-25-2007, 05:34 AM

I still think a determination and a ruling are 2 different things. The attachment I added above is actually dated AFTER the letter.

2005-26th Edition (ATF Publication 5300.5, Revised August 2005).

Though I don't disagree that an 16 carrier would change nothing, if you read the letter closely, they are just tap-dancing around the answer and even says they can't specifically authorize him to install one.

The above letter is what is commonly referred to as a determination letter. If there were some sort of ruling, I would feel much more comfortable with recommending it. Until then, I think it's best to stick with what's on the books.

**Ed Ely** · 09-25-2007, 08:51 AM

Perhaps this documentation will help -

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps4...005/p53004.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...3004/index.htm

Bookmarks are encouraged.

Ed

hardwarz · 09-25-2007, 09:18 AM

This has been beaten to death with no 100% answer. NFA states that the bolt carrier is a machine gun part.

A BATF tech states that as long as it doesn't shoot fully automatic, then you're ok.

Truthfully, the BATF tech's interpretation of the law is only good for the individual it was written for. The rest of us still need to deal with a judge and constructive intent.

Along with a bolt carrier, do you have ANY other machine gun parts (as listed in the NFA)? If so, even if it's not installed, you may be looking at federal charges.

IANAL, but from my stand point, it looks like Colt got the OK from the BATF to install M16 Bolt carriers into new weapons purchased from Colt. The rest of us are still breaking NFA law if we do it in the aftermarket.

Personally, would I chance it? Not really, not because I'm afraid that the BATF would knock on my door and request to see my weapons, but because I don't have a reason to have one in my Armalite. My Armalite shoots fine with the standard bolt carrier.

Hardwarz

*SA-XD4ME* · 09-25-2007, 01:08 PM

Thanks for all the paper work..

I was asking because I found a used RRA 16" with a M16 bolt carrier, and that alone made me weary of the purchase. So all said and done. I will stick to what I know is legal, and have some fun.

Thanks again.

fastboy · 09-25-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvician

I thought the last paragraph in page 2 is quite interesting. Basically they are saying as long as the BCG won't make the gun fire automatic, it's ok to own (even though in page 1 they say they won't authorize the person to install the auto BCG in an AR). It's the "I won't want you to do it, but if you do, it would be ok as long as you just stop at that" kind of thing.

KarolinaKid · 09-25-2007, 04:16 PM

My 6920 came with an M16 bolt carrier as standard equipment. I bought it through an FFL in good standing with the BATFE and have no worries. I really don't think there is any dark conspiracy to allow us to buy firearms with illegal parts through legal reputable dealers only to come convict us as felons as soon as we take possession and I doubt Colt's QC would allow roughly 100% of the 6920s in the last several months to "slip through" with the wrong bolt carrier by mistake.

If you have the opportunity to buy any brand with the M16 bolt carrier already installed (provided no other auto parts or mods are present), especially if it's thru an FFL, I would not hesitate. Although I agree that we may not "need" it, the argument could be made that we don't "need" the gun either. I would think it adds value to the gun to have an enhanced bolt carrier.

Just my 2 cents...

**Ed Ely** · 09-26-2007, 10:30 AM

I could edit the post above, but I do want to
share this favorite by itself. It has lots of info
also -

http://www.subguns.com/

Ed

Krackels · 09-26-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvician

That's more than 2 years old... they've already changed their position 4 times already.

everyone knows ATF letters are only valid for a week following the date on them.

fastboy · 09-26-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krackels

That's more than 2 years old... they've already changed their position 4 times already.

everyone knows ATF letters are only valid for a week following the date on them.

No sh*t. And some people want the government to manage our health care?

09-25-2007, 12:39 AM	#11
mvician XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 3,337	"Paul said that Colt is shipping the M16 bolt carrier in all their 'Match Target' AR15s. However, he said that the factory was machining the pin slot of said carrier before it the left production area for installation in the designed 'Match Target' rifles. That of course means that the assembly cannot be used as a MG part. He said that all of the 'Match Target' rifles come with the M16 bolt carrier (modified)." Colt continues to neuter their "Match Target" rifles that they market to us "civillans" i.e. pinned M4 stock, compensator instead of a FH, no bayo lug. Call back and ask about the LE line up http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR1.../partsfaq.msnw http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121010 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-66150.html http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1975 __________________ AR15s...ya I've built more than a few http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk...ar-family.html ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Last edited by mvician; 09-25-2007 at 12:52 AM.

09-25-2007, 05:34 AM	#12
John A. XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: KY Posts: 676	I still think a determination and a ruling are 2 different things. The attachment I added above is actually dated AFTER the letter. 2005-26th Edition (ATF Publication 5300.5, Revised August 2005). Though I don't disagree that an 16 carrier would change nothing, if you read the letter closely, they are just tap-dancing around the answer and even says they can't specifically authorize him to install one. The above letter is what is commonly referred to as a determination letter. If there were some sort of ruling, I would feel much more comfortable with recommending it. Until then, I think it's best to stick with what's on the books. __________________ "The 2nd Amendment wasn't adopted into the Constitution because the authors liked guns or the destruction they could cause, but to give ordinary citizens the ability to protect themselves and their family and to take up arms against anyone in a governmental position who tried to deny those fundamental and God given rights." Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8

09-25-2007, 09:18 AM	#14
hardwarz XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ak-Rowdy, North side Summit County (Akron, OH) Posts: 396	This has been beaten to death with no 100% answer. NFA states that the bolt carrier is a machine gun part. A BATF tech states that as long as it doesn't shoot fully automatic, then you're ok. Truthfully, the BATF tech's interpretation of the law is only good for the individual it was written for. The rest of us still need to deal with a judge and constructive intent. Along with a bolt carrier, do you have ANY other machine gun parts (as listed in the NFA)? If so, even if it's not installed, you may be looking at federal charges. IANAL, but from my stand point, it looks like Colt got the OK from the BATF to install M16 Bolt carriers into new weapons purchased from Colt. The rest of us are still breaking NFA law if we do it in the aftermarket. Personally, would I chance it? Not really, not because I'm afraid that the BATF would knock on my door and request to see my weapons, but because I don't have a reason to have one in my Armalite. My Armalite shoots fine with the standard bolt carrier. Hardwarz __________________ Always remember the Menendez brothers legal defense, "Sometimes I miss my mom, but then I reload." Last edited by hardwarz; 09-25-2007 at 09:22 AM.

09-25-2007, 01:08 PM	#15
SA-XD4ME XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 209	Thanks for all the paper work.. I was asking because I found a used RRA 16" with a M16 bolt carrier, and that alone made me weary of the purchase. So all said and done. I will stick to what I know is legal, and have some fun. Thanks again. __________________ "The 9mm has survived every modern world conflict in history." -- Me

09-25-2007, 04:16 PM	#17
KarolinaKid XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: TN (In my mind I'm goin' to Carolina...) Posts: 1,150	My 6920 came with an M16 bolt carrier as standard equipment. I bought it through an FFL in good standing with the BATFE and have no worries. I really don't think there is any dark conspiracy to allow us to buy firearms with illegal parts through legal reputable dealers only to come convict us as felons as soon as we take possession and I doubt Colt's QC would allow roughly 100% of the 6920s in the last several months to "slip through" with the wrong bolt carrier by mistake. If you have the opportunity to buy any brand with the M16 bolt carrier already installed (provided no other auto parts or mods are present), especially if it's thru an FFL, I would not hesitate. Although I agree that we may not "need" it, the argument could be made that we don't "need" the gun either. I would think it adds value to the gun to have an enhanced bolt carrier. Just my 2 cents... __________________ The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - Sir George Bernard Shaw Last edited by KarolinaKid; 09-25-2007 at 07:42 PM.

09-25-2007, 08:51 AM	#13
Ed Ely XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: 37.65N -84.76W (Elev. 932 ft) Posts: 7,825 Blog Entries: 1	Perhaps this documentation will help - http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps4...005/p53004.pdf http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...3004/index.htm Bookmarks are encouraged. Ed

09-26-2007, 10:30 AM	#18
Ed Ely XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: 37.65N -84.76W (Elev. 932 ft) Posts: 7,825 Blog Entries: 1	I could edit the post above, but I do want to share this favorite by itself. It has lots of info also - http://www.subguns.com/ Ed

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