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300 Blackout vs 5.56

This is a discussion on 300 Blackout vs 5.56 within the AR Talk forums, part of the Long Gun Talk category; Originally Posted by louslugger15 I'm actually not using the rifle for hunting. My question is does the 300 blackout make a better all around rifle ...


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Old 03-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by louslugger15 View Post
I'm actually not using the rifle for hunting. My question is does the 300 blackout make a better all around rifle than 5.56? By this I mean home defense, range time, and i guess the occasional hunting trip if the heart desired. Is the higher price warranted? Or will this round become nonexistent in 2-3 years?
Range time? Hell no! You can get 420 5.56 rounds for about €140. Not going to happen with .300 blk.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by UofHdevildog View Post
Range time? Hell no! You can get 420 5.56 rounds for about €140. Not going to happen with .300 blk.


430 5.56 for 140...FMJ nothing special.

Blackout will be slightly more because of the .30 cal bullet. More lead equals more money.

Sure I can buy a ton of 5.56 rounds for not much. Kinda like trying to compare the .22 long rifle ammo price to the 45-70 round price. but I am buying the cheap .223/5.56 to neck down so I can shoot them in my blackout.

Blackout rounds will continue to get cheaper, because more people will be shooting it.

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Old 03-24-2012, 11:38 AM   #23
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430 5.56 for 140...FMJ nothing special.

Blackout will be slightly more because of the .30 cal bullet. More lead equals more money.

Sure I can buy a ton of 5.56 rounds for not much. Kinda like trying to compare the .22 long rifle ammo price to the 45-70 round price. but I am buying the cheap .223/5.56 to neck down so I can shoot them in my blackout.

Blackout rounds will continue to get cheaper, because more people will be shooting it.

if you have a 5.56 in the 62grain and up you will be fine. think about it this way. all assault rounds are high velocity rounds and in a home defense situation just about all rifles will go straight through because your so close. they are designed for 100-300m. get a handgun with some JHP or a shotgun 00buck for home defense IMO. i dont think the blackout is worth the money if your not hunting bigger game and just going to the range for fun unless you have the money and dont give a S*** about price. and if more people start shooting the blackout means less rounds on the market in turn causes price to go up! supply and demand my friend. maybe in about 5 to 10 years when the wars die down then yes it will come down because they will start to produce the more exotic rounds instead of what is in high demand like 5.56 ECT.
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Old 03-24-2012, 03:34 PM   #24
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Blackout rounds will continue to get cheaper, because more people will be shooting it.
A lot of people drive cars too, but that doesn't mean that buying a new car is cheaper because more people own them.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:26 PM   #25
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if you have a 5.56 in the 62grain and up you will be fine. think about it this way. all assault rounds are high velocity rounds and in a home defense situation just about all rifles will go straight through because your so close. they are designed for 100-300m. get a handgun with some JHP or a shotgun 00buck for home defense IMO.
I am sorry but that is plain wrong. The 5.56 with soft point of JHP ammunition expands and frangments more at close range than at long range. It is actually safer from the over penetration standpoint when fired in your home than common service pistolr ounds and buck shot. Even with ball ammo the 5.56 is a better choice than handgun rounds.

To the OP's question the .300 Blackout is an interesting round for those interested in medium game hunting where the 5.56 is not legal and its grear for suppressors. Past than I see no use for it.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:33 PM   #26
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I am sorry but that is plain wrong. The 5.56 with soft point of JHP ammunition expands and frangments more at close range than at long range. It is actually safer from the over penetration standpoint when fired in your home than common service pistolr ounds and buck shot. Even with ball ammo the 5.56 is a better choice than handgun rounds.
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well i would like to see where you get your info that comes to that conclusion. softpoint maybe, but muzzle velocity of a 5.56 round with surface area of a 5.56 vs muzzel velocity and surface area on a .45 JHP? school me and show me how i am wrong....
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:43 PM   #27
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well i would like to see where you get your info that comes to that conclusion. softpoint maybe, but muzzle velocity of a 5.56 round with surface area of a 5.56 vs muzzel velocity and surface area on a .45 JHP? school me and show me how i am wrong....
Velocity is only part of the factor. The 5.56 is fast but light and breaks up once it encounters resistance. The .45 acp is heavy and has a lot of momentium and takes more resistance to slow it down to a stop.

There are several articles covering this. Here is one.

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training CenterStaff




A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received somerecent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increasedpower, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have beencited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems.Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissuedamage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectilefired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the.223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possiblesubsequent liability.


Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various.223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representingindoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimicshots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out theexterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wallpenetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected tosubstantiate other findings reported or provide new information to thoseinterested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame withstandard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls weremade using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exteriorgrade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exteriortest wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams,electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of thetest walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots firedfrom. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and intoanother similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or sidefacing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior sidefacing toward the shooter.)


All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall#l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of thesucceeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firingresults were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the"house" after passing through two interior "rooms," thenentered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliberwhich demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56)soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory afterpassing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitudewith each test wall the projectile passed through.


The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to beprimarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bulletvelocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 softpoint and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metaljacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differentialeffects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 aredifferent and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgunbullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefoldgreater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bulletvelocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetrationdistance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was alsogreater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets;again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more thanever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tacticalfundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange.Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S.Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2


.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs. .40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In aneffort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun andshotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the.223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the.40S&W [handgun round].


Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks,6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col.M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10%mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accuratelysimulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.

A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exteriorwalls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area.This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2ndpiece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [ofthe wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.

Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.


Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.


Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired,its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet wasfired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was firedthrough the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order todetermine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit thewall of a building.


Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.


Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunitiontested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis forconcern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seemseven safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.


The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material whenshot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when theyentered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than whenshot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as aresult penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potentialfor damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP]is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs orbuckshot.

Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car dooror glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up afterentering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these roundssplit in two.

ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCEOF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT ANDCOMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICHMAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN ISINTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUTOF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THISARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISINGOUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.



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Old 03-25-2012, 06:28 AM   #28
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I have a .300 black out AR15. Its okay. I shoot the .223 barrled ARs and carry them on the road (as a back up/for my wife) a whole lot more.

The .223's are just as accurate (for my purposes) at the ranges I'll be shooting. They are cheaper to buy factory ammo for (don't buy much but I have bought it), cheaper to reload for and the .22 conversion kits make it really sweet to just go out and play with without worrying about the cost, how much ammo I have in the trunk for the return road trip, picking up brass, etc.

I built my .300 upper with the idea of suppressing it (after having the barrel shortened) and using it to put a deer in the freezer now and then from behind my house. The deer walk around in my back lot and get plums and peaches from my trees (if it hits the ground, its gone before morning).

Would I buy a second one? No. One .300 AAC Black Out AR15 is enough. I'm not saying how many .223 AR15's I have.

Lot's of folks are having great success deer hunting with the .300 black out. Bullet placement and a bullet that penetrates to/through the vitals is always the way to go. Does it need to expand if it hits the right spot? No deer I ever killed would have kept going if I'd used a FMJ vs. the hunting bullets I used in my M1A.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:04 AM   #29
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Just steer away from 300 Whisper....sheesh, have you seen the prices lately? $101.00 for a box of Cor-Bon. Its insanity.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:45 AM   #30
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Ya I'm not really sold on the value of 300BLK for anything but maybe some kinds of hunting. At any reasonable personal defense range (are you really going to shoot someone at over 100 yards?) proper 5.56 is fantastically lethal. It's velocity causes it to fragment quite violently on impact meaning it imparts all of its considerable kinetic energy in to the target and spreads out well. For the same reason it is also rather poor at barrier penetration, which is desirable in an urban environment.

The reason the military has been sniffing around at other rounds like the 6.8SPC is because of the barrier penetration issue (they want it, and they can't use soft point rounds) and because of longer range engagements. Once the round no longer has sufficient velocity to fragment, you risk a through-and-through, which of course doesn't to much damage with a tiny round.

So I'm really not sure what problem 300BLK is supposed to solve. I can't really see what I'd use it for.
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