XD Talk

wolffire99 · 08-22-2008, 11:01 AM

It seems that most articles and posts I've read measure the "stopping" power of a given caliber by the amount of penetration into ballistics gel. I realize that law enforcement/military needs rounds that can penetrate doors, glass etc.. But for home/self defense, aren't we possibly putting those we love at risk using calibers that penetration >12"? On another note, it seems that "stopping power" is the transfer of energy from the bullet to the target. By over penetrating the target, much of that energy will not be utilized.

Is OVER penetration something you considered when choosing your personal defense caliber?

BaxterTheBunny · 08-22-2008, 11:23 AM

That's why I use hollow point bullets with the idea that I will be shooting w/in a 25 feet target range. If someone is further away than that I would try and retreat if at all possible.

Many ppl have shotguns for home defense for this reason also. I read one thread were it was advised to put a bookcase to harden children's room in case the bullets/buckshot start flying.

gsh341 · 08-22-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolffire99

It seems that most articles and posts I've read measure the "stopping" power of a given caliber by the amount of penetration into ballistics gel. I realize that law enforcement/military needs rounds that can penetrate doors, glass etc.. But for home/self defense, aren't we possibly putting those we love at risk using calibers that penetration >12"? On another note, it seems that "stopping power" is the transfer of energy from the bullet to the target. By over penetrating the target, much of that energy will not be utilized.

Is OVER penetration something you considered when choosing your personal defense caliber?

No, it's not a concern at all.

Statistics have shown that , on average, 8 out of 10 shots in a shooting situation miss the intended target completely. I'm much more concerned with where those rounds went and what's behind my target than the remote possibility of over-penetration.

Also, how much energy is used in actually penetrating a body in the first place? My ammo of choice, Cor-Bon DPX, will get about 15" of penetration in ballistic gelatin. If you consider that the average person is between 10" to 20", front to back, in the abdominal area the bullet will have at best 5 additional inches of penetration if no bones are hit. If you hit the ribcage, shoulder or spine, the bullet should stop well within the body cavity.

The main reason for a deep penetrating bullet is to increase the likelihood of contacting the organs and causing the body to shut down. The main reason for hollow point bullets is to maximize the permanent wound cavity and cause the most damage possible to those organs, not to prevent over-penetration. Ideally the bullet should fully expand and have just enough energy to completely penetrate the bad guy and be stopped with the bad guys clothing. That's unrealistic, so maximum penetration is the next best thing.

Never buy a self-defense round that insures minimal penetration. All it will do is make the bad guy mad and give him a chance to kill you.

**agalindo** · 08-22-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolffire99

It seems that most articles and posts I've read measure the "stopping" power of a given caliber by the amount of penetration into ballistics gel. I realize that law enforcement/military needs rounds that can penetrate doors, glass etc.. But for home/self defense, aren't we possibly putting those we love at risk using calibers that penetration >12"? On another note, it seems that "stopping power" is the transfer of energy from the bullet to the target. By over penetrating the target, much of that energy will not be utilized.

Is OVER penetration something you considered when choosing your personal defense caliber?

Most modern premium quality HPs are designed to penetrate 12" of ballistics gelatin this is to ensure that the bullet will penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on a BG at less than optimal angles, remember a BG is not going to give you a perfect shilluete, it's not about penetrating doors or glass.

Incorrect, stopping power is not about energy transfer it's about size of wound channel (bullet expansion) and depth of penetration. There is not enough energy transferred by a bullet to cause significant damage.

Over penetration, meaning over 12", is not desirable when choosing an personal defense round.

**PackerfanXD** · 08-22-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

penetration...when is enough enough?

I'll ask my wife when she gets home.

fredj338 · 08-22-2008, 01:32 PM

There are many schools of thought. Penetration alone does not guarantee a quick end to the fight. If that were true, we would all use FMJ. No, it's a balancing act, expansion v penetration. The largest wound cavity you can get & stiil get at least 12" of penetration. WHy 12", because some BG are over 200#. You may have to shoot thru 4"-6" of forearm or shoulder. Worry more about misses than overpenetration.
As far as the 25ft retreat thing, lol, that's only 7 long steps. A nut w/ a knife can cover that faster than you can bring your pistol up & engage. Besides, in my own home, I am not retreating form any attacker. You may even have to fight your way into your kids room. Lots of things to worry about in a SD/HD situation & over penetration is way down the list.

**Edubya** · 08-22-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

I'll ask my wife when she gets home.

Not enough 'til you tickle the back of their tonsils!

RogueXD · 08-22-2008, 03:16 PM

I want high impact and high enery!! I would perfer not to go through my target, but check your target.

nos kia · 08-22-2008, 07:53 PM

I would tend to agree with the above.
Rougue kinda had it down.
If I shoot fragmenting rounds, those misses have less a chance of harming innocents on my missed shot(s) in the home.
Plus the energy the round will transfer will be enough to shock or cause severe trauma, maybe even stop a BG.
What about if you hit an arm or leg or neck of the BG, chances are the JHP will still over penetrate into or through the wall thats behind if no bones are contacted, then even those shots have possibilities of hitting innocents. But Frag rounds will not penetrate a wall after an arm or neck or leg shot or even a miss.

What are your thoughts on the above? Anyone? Does my thinking hold any water in a Home Defense via BG in the home scenario?

Thanks for your input,
-NOS

gsh341 · 08-22-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nos kia

I would tend to agree with the above.
Rougue kinda had it down.
If I shoot fragmenting rounds, those misses have less a chance of harming innocents on my missed shot(s) in the home.
Plus the energy the round will transfer will be enough to shock or cause severe trauma, maybe even stop a BG.
What about if you hit an arm or leg or neck of the BG, chances are the JHP will still over penetrate into or through the wall thats behind if no bones are contacted, then even those shots have possibilities of hitting innocents. But Frag rounds will not penetrate a wall after an arm or neck or leg shot or even a miss.

What are your thoughts on the above? Anyone? Does my thinking hold any water in a Home Defense via BG in the home scenario?

Thanks for your input,
-NOS

In a word, no.

Frangible rounds will not penetrate nearly far enough to cause enough trauma to a body to make it stop. The FBI has done extensive research into the penetration issue and has concluded that a bare minimum of 9" is required to make a bullet effective in most situations.

Frangible rounds create nasty looking wounds but do not penetrate much past the outer layers of the body. If the bad guy is wearing a leather jacket or some other type of heavy clothing the frangible round may not reach the bad guy at all.

This site tests the frangible rounds, amid many others, and you can see the results for yourself.

The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock™ Ammo and the Box O' Truth - Page 1