Hollow point ammo used in Iraq? - Page 3 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

The Knight Of Light · 06-30-2005, 11:13 PM

1, 2, 3, 4 I DECLARE A POST WAR!!!!! Anyway we didn't sign the portion of the Hague treaty that says we don't use "Expanding Amunition" We signed an earlier treaty. We are all issued M855. Even me and the other technoweenies in the Air Force. There are no M16A1s left, and there are definitely some crazy rounds being field tested right now. The Seira MK, and Nosler OTHP(Open Tip Hollow Point) match bullets do not expand. There are units testing blended metal or compressed powder metal bullets(ie Frangible) they make one hell of a wound tract, but they are mostly being used for the environmentaly friendly range time we use. The 6.8 uses a bullet that is not HP, but the power alone will knock down and punch through most armor (We know we tried it, flak vest with trauma plate). Like butter. The Air Force has also gone almost exclusivly to the M4 with Aimpoints. Hows that? I might have missed some stuff, but who really cares, as long as we kick ass.

NiK · 07-01-2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Knight Of Light

1, 2, 3, 4 I DECLARE A POST WAR!!!!! Anyway we didn't sign the portion of the Hague treaty that says we don't use "Expanding Amunition"

Right, it just mentions ammunition that might cause unneccesary suffering.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/la...ue04.htm#art23

The Knight Of Light · 07-01-2005, 10:33 AM

More often than not, Expanding Hollow points bring a quicker end to the conflict anyway by causing massive tissue damage thereby killing the organism (human, dog, etc...) very quickly. In fact the Lethal Force Institute run by Massad Ayoob has student kill an animal and dissect to see what their ammunition of choice does in the wound tract. He won't allow ball ammo to be used if it is not of suficcient calibre 40, 45 etc... Kind of gross but then I guess if you really need to know. If anything the Hague was referring to the soft point hunting type of ammunition used by many countries as the smokeless powder, bottle neck ammunition was being developed. What we need is an updated treaty, with a better view of things that cause “suffering” like Saddam, and Terrorism.

BrokenArrow · 07-01-2005, 11:04 AM

Yep.

The USA has legal opinions that say the JHP/OTM ammo we use is OK.

There are also opinions that say what we do to some of our prisoners is not torture.

The 9th Circuit court says the 2ndA is not an individual right, the 5th circuit court says it is, the SCOTUS dodges the question every chance it gets...

Opinions; everybody has 'em.

Why we really don't wanna subject ourselves to the opinions of an international criminal court. Have you seen some of the loony stuff that comes out of the UN?

Cumorah · 08-18-2005, 06:44 AM

some folks in Afganisthan are using 6.8 jhp, as mentioned 147gr jhp is in the inventory and Black Hills 5.56MM jhp is. Of course, this stuff is usually referred to as "open tip match"

hal.9000 · 08-28-2005, 06:02 PM

Ah, but here's the rub with the Hague convention. It specifies that we can't shoot UNIFORMED soldiers with expanding ammo. How many insurgents over there are actually wearing uniforms? The JAG has said it's O.K. to shoot NON UNIFORMED combatants (illegal combatants) with the expanding stuff.

From what I hear they need all the help they can get. The M855 is great for poking nice, neat, little holes in helmets at 800 meters, but at close range out of an M-4 carbine it is taking several hits just to down one enemy combatant. The same for Somalia. Of course there was the problem of Qot in Somalia. Qot (pronounced cot) is a powerful drug much like PCP, that turns people into bullet sponges.

06-30-2005, 11:13 PM	#21
The Knight Of Light XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 8,708 Blog Entries: 12	Good Lord!!! 1, 2, 3, 4 I DECLARE A POST WAR!!!!! Anyway we didn't sign the portion of the Hague treaty that says we don't use "Expanding Amunition" We signed an earlier treaty. We are all issued M855. Even me and the other technoweenies in the Air Force. There are no M16A1s left, and there are definitely some crazy rounds being field tested right now. The Seira MK, and Nosler OTHP(Open Tip Hollow Point) match bullets do not expand. There are units testing blended metal or compressed powder metal bullets(ie Frangible) they make one hell of a wound tract, but they are mostly being used for the environmentaly friendly range time we use. The 6.8 uses a bullet that is not HP, but the power alone will knock down and punch through most armor (We know we tried it, flak vest with trauma plate). Like butter. The Air Force has also gone almost exclusivly to the M4 with Aimpoints. Hows that? I might have missed some stuff, but who really cares, as long as we kick ass. __________________ No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. USPSA #L3077 What a great number!!! http://theknightoflight.blogspot.com/ Creator of TOP 'O' THE PAGE!!! Moose Fight

07-01-2005, 10:33 AM	#23
The Knight Of Light XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 8,708 Blog Entries: 12	More often than not, Expanding Hollow points bring a quicker end to the conflict anyway by causing massive tissue damage thereby killing the organism (human, dog, etc...) very quickly. In fact the Lethal Force Institute run by Massad Ayoob has student kill an animal and dissect to see what their ammunition of choice does in the wound tract. He won't allow ball ammo to be used if it is not of suficcient calibre 40, 45 etc... Kind of gross but then I guess if you really need to know. If anything the Hague was referring to the soft point hunting type of ammunition used by many countries as the smokeless powder, bottle neck ammunition was being developed. What we need is an updated treaty, with a better view of things that cause “suffering” like Saddam, and Terrorism. __________________ No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. USPSA #L3077 What a great number!!! http://theknightoflight.blogspot.com/ Creator of TOP 'O' THE PAGE!!! Moose Fight

07-01-2005, 11:04 AM	#24
BrokenArrow XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Lost In Space Posts: 116	Yep. The USA has legal opinions that say the JHP/OTM ammo we use is OK. There are also opinions that say what we do to some of our prisoners is not torture. The 9th Circuit court says the 2ndA is not an individual right, the 5th circuit court says it is, the SCOTUS dodges the question every chance it gets... Opinions; everybody has 'em. Why we really don't wanna subject ourselves to the opinions of an international criminal court. Have you seen some of the loony stuff that comes out of the UN? __________________ Mike >>>>----> In archery we have three goals: to shoot accurately, to shoot powerfully, to shoot rapidly. - Anonymous Byzantine general, On Strategy (Peri Strategias) c. AD 527-65

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08-18-2005, 06:44 AM	#25
Cumorah XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3	some folks in Afganisthan are using 6.8 jhp, as mentioned 147gr jhp is in the inventory and Black Hills 5.56MM jhp is. Of course, this stuff is usually referred to as "open tip match"

08-28-2005, 06:02 PM	#26
hal.9000 XDTalk Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 86	Ah, but here's the rub with the Hague convention. It specifies that we can't shoot UNIFORMED soldiers with expanding ammo. How many insurgents over there are actually wearing uniforms? The JAG has said it's O.K. to shoot NON UNIFORMED combatants (illegal combatants) with the expanding stuff. From what I hear they need all the help they can get. The M855 is great for poking nice, neat, little holes in helmets at 800 meters, but at close range out of an M-4 carbine it is taking several hits just to down one enemy combatant. The same for Somalia. Of course there was the problem of Qot in Somalia. Qot (pronounced cot) is a powerful drug much like PCP, that turns people into bullet sponges.