Cops claim ammo shortage - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

ichy_trigger · 08-19-2007, 06:16 AM

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070817/D8R2UKLG0.html

Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol.
An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition. And the shortages are resulting in prices as much as double what departments were paying just a year ago.
"There were warehouses full of it. Now, that isn't the case," said Al Aden, police chief in Pierre, S.D.
Departments in all parts of the country reported delays or reductions in training and, in at least one case, a proposal to use paint-ball guns in firing drills as a way to conserve real ammo.
Forgoing proper, repetitive weapons training comes with a price on the streets, police say, in diminished accuracy, quickness on the draw and basic decision-making skills.
"You are not going to be as sharp or as good, especially if an emergency situation comes up," said Sgt. James MacGillis, range master for the Milwaukee police. "The better-trained officer is the one that is less likely to use force."
The pinch is blamed on a skyrocketing demand for ammunition that followed the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven by the training needs of a military at war, and, ironically, police departments raising their own practice regiments following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The increasingly voracious demand for copper and lead overseas, especially in China, has also been a factor.
The military is in no danger of running out because it gets the overwhelming majority of its ammunition from a dedicated plant outside Kansas City. But police are at the mercy of commercial manufacturers.
None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street, and many departments reported no problems buying ammunition. But others told the AP they face higher prices and months-long delays.
In Oklahoma City, for example, officers cannot qualify with AR-15 rifles because the department does not have enough .223-caliber ammunition - a round similar to that fired by the military's M-16 and M4 rifles. Last fall, an ammunition shortage forced the department to cancel qualification courses for several different guns.
"We've got to teach the officers how to use the weapon, and they've got to be able to go to the range and qualify with the weapon and show proficiency," said department spokesman Capt. Steve McCool. "And you can't do that unless you have the rounds."
In Milwaukee, supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low the department has repeatedly dipped into its ammunition reserves. Some weapons training has already been cut by 30 percent, and lessons on rifles have been altered to conserve bullets.
Unlike troops in an active war zone, patrol officers rarely fire their weapons in the line of duty. Even then, an officer in a firefight isn't likely to shoot more than a dozen rounds, said Asheville, N.C., police training officer Lt. Gary Gudac. That, he said, makes training with live ammunition for real-life situations - such as a vehicle stop - so essential.
"We spend a lot of money and time making sure the officers are able to shoot a moving target or shoot back into a vehicle," Gudac said. "Any time we have a deadly force encounter, one of the first things we pull is the officer's qualification records."
In Trenton, N.J., a lack of available ammunition led the city to give up plans to convert its force to .45-caliber handguns. Last year, the sheriff's department in Bergen County, N.J., had to borrow 26,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition to complete twice-a-year training for officers.
"Now we're planning at least a year and a half, even two years in advance," said Bergen County Detective David Macey, a firearms examiner.
In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver.
"We got creative in how we do in training," said Sgt. Bret Draughn, who supervises the department's ammunition purchases. "We had to cut out extra practice sessions. We cut back in certain areas so we don't have to cut out mandatory training."
In Wyoming, the state leaned on its ammunition suppler earlier this year so every state trooper could qualify on the standard-issue AR-15 rifle, said Capt. Bill Morse. Rifle rounds scheduled to arrive in January did not show up until May, leading to a rush of troopers trying to qualify by the deadline.
"We didn't (initially) have enough ammunition to qualify everybody in the state," Morse said.
In Indianapolis, police spokesman Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the department has enough ammunition for now, but is considering using paint balls during a two-week training course, during which recruits fire normally fire about 1,000 rounds each.
"It's all based on the demands in Iraq," Duhamell said. "A lot of the companies are trying to keep up with the demands of the war and the demands of training police departments. The price increased too - went up 15 to 20 percent - and they were advising us ... to order as much as you can."
Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition.
"We really don't have a lot of choices," Cpl. Mikeal Bates said. "In our profession, we have to have it."
The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., directly supplies the military with more than 80 percent of its small-arms ammunition. Production at the factory has more than tripled since 2002, rising from roughly 425 million rounds that year to 1.4 billion rounds in 2006, according to the Joint Munitions Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.
Most of the rest of the military's small-arms ammunition comes from Falls Church, Va.-based General Dynamics Corp. (GD), which relies partly on subcontractors - some of whom also supply police departments. Right now, their priority is filling the military's orders, said Darren Newsom, general manager of The Hunting Shack in Stevensville, Mont., which ships 250,000 rounds a day as it supplies ammunition to 3,000 police departments nationwide.
"There's just a major shortage on ammo in the U.S. right now," he said, pointing to his current backorder for 2.5 million rounds of .223-caliber ammunition. "It's just terrible."
Police say the .223-caliber rifle round is generally the hardest to find. Even though rounds used by the military are not exactly the same as those sold to police, they are made from the same metals and often using the same equipment.
Alliant Techsystems Inc. (ATK), which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply.
"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."
That unrelenting demand for ammunition will continue to put a premium on planning ahead, said Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who so far has kept his department from experiencing any shortage-related problems.
"If we have a problem, I'll go make an issue of it - if I have to go to Washington or the military," Arpaio said. "That is a serious thing ... if you don't have the firepower to protect the public and yourself."
--- Estes Thompson reported from Raleigh, N.C. Associated Press writers Sean Murphy in Oklahoma City; Robert Imrie in Wausau, Wis.; Joe Kafka in Pierre, S.D.; Rebecca Santana in Trenton, N.J.; Matt Gouras in Helena, Mont.; Robert Moen in Cheyenne, Wyo.; Jonathan Gambrell in Little Rock, Ark., Ryan Lenz in Evansville, Ind.; and Terry Tang in Phoenix contributed to this report.

**PackerfanXD** · 08-19-2007, 06:51 AM

Make more ammo! I'm sick of these prices!

hotpig · 08-19-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

Make more ammo! I'm sick of these prices!

This is not the America from WWII era. We do not have the industrial might to machine up overnight. Give it two years to catch up and we should be ok.

Tard · 08-19-2007, 04:15 PM

Ya, but dudes we've been fighting this war for a LONG TIME.
ammo shortage = high prices
gas shortage = high prices
no shortage of baloney, however.

jdavionic · 08-19-2007, 04:46 PM

Well, I'm doing my part. I've made a good amount of ammo now. I haven't bought ammo since May, which for me is a long time. And yet I've got several ammo cans full of ammo. Whenever I have some down time, I just go make some more.

**jnclement** · 08-19-2007, 06:27 PM

That's funny. I can find it. Maybe I should go to work for the police.

**AZXD** · 08-19-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnclement

That's funny. I can find it. Maybe I should go to work for the police.

Beauracracy in action ?
They have a supply system they must go through.

Quote:

In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver.

Yet the stuff is falling off the shelves around here.
The only thing I have seen getting cleared out on a regular basis is .223 stuff

Sure the price is higher, they jacked it up when they realized we would pay more

The discount stuff that LE receives is low priority when you look at dollars. Besides the war makes for an excuse that many accept.
Tard is right "Ya, but dudes we've been fighting this war for a LONG TIME" after this much time you would think supply and demand would reach stability.

**Ed Ely** · 08-19-2007, 07:19 PM

more than 5 billion rounds for hunting
and police!! I seriously doubt that they
would mention the law abiding gun owner
who just likes to shoot the 5.56/223
round. But...that may be just as well.

There is plenty of ammo, the price is just
not high enough to produce it yet. What I
refer to as greed and capitalism.

Wake up America, China IS making the
calls and driving market prices.

Ed

Quote:

Alliant Techsystems Inc. (ATK), which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply.

retired · 08-19-2007, 07:46 PM

Last week when I went shooting at an outdoor range with Andyg, the rangemaster told me he had heard there will be 2 more price raises on ammo before the year's end.

I mentioned that yesterday to the guy who sells huge amounts of ammo at the gun show I go to and he said the same thing, as did the salesman from Turner Outdoorsman (a chain of stores).

The gun show guy sold me a 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 for $148 in Feb. It was $85 the year before. He said they are selling for $209 in the store and they aren't sure what the price will be in Sept. at the gun show I'm going to.

hotpig · 08-20-2007, 08:09 AM

There were three price increases scheduled for this year. The second one is just starting. The third is the regular end of the year one.

08-19-2007, 06:16 AM	#1
ichy_trigger XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 8,316	Cops claim ammo shortage http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070817/D8R2UKLG0.html Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol. An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition. And the shortages are resulting in prices as much as double what departments were paying just a year ago. "There were warehouses full of it. Now, that isn't the case," said Al Aden, police chief in Pierre, S.D. Departments in all parts of the country reported delays or reductions in training and, in at least one case, a proposal to use paint-ball guns in firing drills as a way to conserve real ammo. Forgoing proper, repetitive weapons training comes with a price on the streets, police say, in diminished accuracy, quickness on the draw and basic decision-making skills. "You are not going to be as sharp or as good, especially if an emergency situation comes up," said Sgt. James MacGillis, range master for the Milwaukee police. "The better-trained officer is the one that is less likely to use force." The pinch is blamed on a skyrocketing demand for ammunition that followed the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven by the training needs of a military at war, and, ironically, police departments raising their own practice regiments following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The increasingly voracious demand for copper and lead overseas, especially in China, has also been a factor. The military is in no danger of running out because it gets the overwhelming majority of its ammunition from a dedicated plant outside Kansas City. But police are at the mercy of commercial manufacturers. None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street, and many departments reported no problems buying ammunition. But others told the AP they face higher prices and months-long delays. In Oklahoma City, for example, officers cannot qualify with AR-15 rifles because the department does not have enough .223-caliber ammunition - a round similar to that fired by the military's M-16 and M4 rifles. Last fall, an ammunition shortage forced the department to cancel qualification courses for several different guns. "We've got to teach the officers how to use the weapon, and they've got to be able to go to the range and qualify with the weapon and show proficiency," said department spokesman Capt. Steve McCool. "And you can't do that unless you have the rounds." In Milwaukee, supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low the department has repeatedly dipped into its ammunition reserves. Some weapons training has already been cut by 30 percent, and lessons on rifles have been altered to conserve bullets. Unlike troops in an active war zone, patrol officers rarely fire their weapons in the line of duty. Even then, an officer in a firefight isn't likely to shoot more than a dozen rounds, said Asheville, N.C., police training officer Lt. Gary Gudac. That, he said, makes training with live ammunition for real-life situations - such as a vehicle stop - so essential. "We spend a lot of money and time making sure the officers are able to shoot a moving target or shoot back into a vehicle," Gudac said. "Any time we have a deadly force encounter, one of the first things we pull is the officer's qualification records." In Trenton, N.J., a lack of available ammunition led the city to give up plans to convert its force to .45-caliber handguns. Last year, the sheriff's department in Bergen County, N.J., had to borrow 26,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition to complete twice-a-year training for officers. "Now we're planning at least a year and a half, even two years in advance," said Bergen County Detective David Macey, a firearms examiner. In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver. "We got creative in how we do in training," said Sgt. Bret Draughn, who supervises the department's ammunition purchases. "We had to cut out extra practice sessions. We cut back in certain areas so we don't have to cut out mandatory training." In Wyoming, the state leaned on its ammunition suppler earlier this year so every state trooper could qualify on the standard-issue AR-15 rifle, said Capt. Bill Morse. Rifle rounds scheduled to arrive in January did not show up until May, leading to a rush of troopers trying to qualify by the deadline. "We didn't (initially) have enough ammunition to qualify everybody in the state," Morse said. In Indianapolis, police spokesman Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the department has enough ammunition for now, but is considering using paint balls during a two-week training course, during which recruits fire normally fire about 1,000 rounds each. "It's all based on the demands in Iraq," Duhamell said. "A lot of the companies are trying to keep up with the demands of the war and the demands of training police departments. The price increased too - went up 15 to 20 percent - and they were advising us ... to order as much as you can." Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition. "We really don't have a lot of choices," Cpl. Mikeal Bates said. "In our profession, we have to have it." The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., directly supplies the military with more than 80 percent of its small-arms ammunition. Production at the factory has more than tripled since 2002, rising from roughly 425 million rounds that year to 1.4 billion rounds in 2006, according to the Joint Munitions Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois. Most of the rest of the military's small-arms ammunition comes from Falls Church, Va.-based General Dynamics Corp. (GD), which relies partly on subcontractors - some of whom also supply police departments. Right now, their priority is filling the military's orders, said Darren Newsom, general manager of The Hunting Shack in Stevensville, Mont., which ships 250,000 rounds a day as it supplies ammunition to 3,000 police departments nationwide. "There's just a major shortage on ammo in the U.S. right now," he said, pointing to his current backorder for 2.5 million rounds of .223-caliber ammunition. "It's just terrible." Police say the .223-caliber rifle round is generally the hardest to find. Even though rounds used by the military are not exactly the same as those sold to police, they are made from the same metals and often using the same equipment. Alliant Techsystems Inc. (ATK), which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply. "We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability." That unrelenting demand for ammunition will continue to put a premium on planning ahead, said Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who so far has kept his department from experiencing any shortage-related problems. "If we have a problem, I'll go make an issue of it - if I have to go to Washington or the military," Arpaio said. "That is a serious thing ... if you don't have the firepower to protect the public and yourself." --- Estes Thompson reported from Raleigh, N.C. Associated Press writers Sean Murphy in Oklahoma City; Robert Imrie in Wausau, Wis.; Joe Kafka in Pierre, S.D.; Rebecca Santana in Trenton, N.J.; Matt Gouras in Helena, Mont.; Robert Moen in Cheyenne, Wyo.; Jonathan Gambrell in Little Rock, Ark., Ryan Lenz in Evansville, Ind.; and Terry Tang in Phoenix contributed to this report. __________________ "The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member2645.png

08-19-2007, 06:51 AM	#2
PackerfanXD XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ground zero of the invasion Posts: 7,401 Blog Entries: 1	Make more ammo! I'm sick of these prices! __________________ I am currently traveling space and time. I will be returning last week. The wealthiest nation in the world with the mightiest army man has ever assembled could not stop them. http://www.break.com/usercontent/200...00-358890.html

08-19-2007, 04:15 PM	#4
Tard XDTalk 4K Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Machias, WA Posts: 4,453	Ya, but dudes we've been fighting this war for a LONG TIME. ammo shortage = high prices gas shortage = high prices no shortage of baloney, however. __________________ If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

08-19-2007, 06:27 PM	#6
jnclement XDTalk 2K Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 2,613	That's funny. I can find it. Maybe I should go to work for the police. __________________ Contrary to what sells magazines, not all of us are, or want to be SpecOps, SEAL, Recon, Delta, CQB, Ninja, firearm-knife-tactical-death-touch instructors.

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08-19-2007, 04:46 PM	#5
jdavionic XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: GA Posts: 5,105	Well, I'm doing my part. I've made a good amount of ammo now. I haven't bought ammo since May, which for me is a long time. And yet I've got several ammo cans full of ammo. Whenever I have some down time, I just go make some more.

08-19-2007, 07:46 PM	#9
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,599	Last week when I went shooting at an outdoor range with Andyg, the rangemaster told me he had heard there will be 2 more price raises on ammo before the year's end. I mentioned that yesterday to the guy who sells huge amounts of ammo at the gun show I go to and he said the same thing, as did the salesman from Turner Outdoorsman (a chain of stores). The gun show guy sold me a 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 for $148 in Feb. It was $85 the year before. He said they are selling for $209 in the store and they aren't sure what the price will be in Sept. at the gun show I'm going to.

08-20-2007, 08:09 AM	#10
hotpig XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SW Illinois Posts: 287	There were three price increases scheduled for this year. The second one is just starting. The third is the regular end of the year one.