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AR Ammo for self/home defense??

This is a discussion on AR Ammo for self/home defense?? within the The Ammo Can forums, part of the Armory Talk category; Fred would use fmj in your rifle for deer? My point is unless your hunting big dangerous game, where penetration is the most important thing, ...


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Old 03-14-2012, 08:23 AM   #21
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Fred would use fmj in your rifle for deer? My point is unless your hunting big dangerous game, where penetration is the most important thing, an fmj is not the best choice. An sp or hp will mushroom and cause more damage and take game down better than an fmj.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:05 AM   #22
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Good AR15 Ammo discussion

:: Ammo Oracle



Quote:
Originally Posted by windsearcher View Post
I did a search of the Ammo Can, and it seems there is plenty of discussion on home/self defense hand-gun ammo, but still haven't gotten to something that addresses what people stock up on for their defense ammo for their AR platform rifles.

Currently, I'm stocking up on practice ammo, whatever cheap I can find.... but will need to look for something if I need to use the AR for its intended purpose.

Have heard that I should load up with the green tip "penetrator" ammo, (forget the #)... but then there are also hollow points.

Twist is 1:8 in my rifle and so I think that should cover all except the heaviest loads.

Your thoughts guys?

And, yes, I will continue to refine my searches, while I wait to hear what you guys have for thoughts.

Thanks as always!!
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:15 AM   #23
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I personally stocked up on the Federal 62gr OTM (Mk318 Mod-0) round. According to the DocGKR (5.56 mm Duty Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums):

Quote:
Another acceptable 5.56 mm loading is the Speer 55 gr Gold Dot JSP; the Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1) is also a potential option.
More information about the Mk318: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60877

When it comes between shotgun and AR (Home Defense Long Guns - M4Carbine.net Forums):

Quote:
Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:00 AM   #24
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One last thing I wanted to mention is that you can get factory seconds of the Federal Mk318 Mod0 for a pretty decent price. A round can be designated a factory second for various reasons to include being a production overrun, cosmetic blems, etc., but they are functionally fine.

Ammunition To Go : 20rds - 5.56 Federal Lake City XMT556TNB1 62gr. OTM (SOST) Ammo [XMT556TNB1] - $14.95

Ammunition To Go : 200rds - 5.56 Federal Lake City XMT556TNB1 62gr. OTM (SOST) Ammo [XMT556TNB1] - $147.95
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:03 AM   #25
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I'll keep on reading, and learning. As always, I appreciate the thoughts from all of my friends here on XDTalk!! Keep up the ideas, and I'll keep on soaking up the info!!
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:32 AM   #26
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Here's some info Doc Roberts posted about fmj on a thread on m4carbine. Looks like I had my numbers wrong but still depending on fragmentation of an fmj is not the best choice. To many variables to count on so an SP or HP are better choices.

Quote:
For all of the folks who seem to think this is unusual M193 terminal performance, I suggest you CAREFULLY re-read Dr. Fackler’s comments here: 5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts - M4Carbine.net Forums, as this looks like a pretty typical wound from a 5.56 mm M193 that had relatively early yaw in tissue, especially when fired at close range out of a 20” barrel. As Doc “Prairiefire” so cogently notes above, not all M193 bullets work as dramatically as this one did, but when M193 does have early upset the results can be spectacular! The problem with M193 is not that it does not work, but that it is inconsistent. As I have previously written:

Quote:
”When fired from the M16A1, the U.S. M193 55 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet enters the tissue, leaving a small punctate entrance wound, and then travels point forward for 4.7" approximately 70% of the time. Keep in mind that approximately 15% of the time the M193 projectile may exhibit earlier initial yaw while 15% of the time the initial yaw point will be much deeper. If the bullet leaves tissue before yawing, it will leave a small punctate exit wound and will have caused minimal tissue disruption along the wound tract. If the projectile yaws in tissue, it will turn to 90 degrees, flatten, and fracture at the cannelure. The flattened bullet nose remains in one piece and retains 60% of the original bullet weight. The 40% of the bullet behind the cannelure shatters into many fragments that can spread up to 2.75" radially away from the wound tract. These fragment each cut their own path through the surrounding tissue, multiply perforating it. Temporary cavitation then exerts its stretch effects on this weakened tissue, synergistically increasing the permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. Wounds in body segments thicker than 4.7" show greatly enlarged permanent and temporary cavities and can create stellate exit wounds of 3.5 to 4.7" measured form the ends opposite the skin splits. The degree of bullet fragmentation is dependent on velocity. As the range to the target increases, the striking velocity decreases. At 80 to 180 meters, the bullet yaws, breaks at the cannelure into two large pieces, but does not fragment. Beyond 180 meters, the bullet remains intact and creates wounds by the same mechanism as the Soviet 5.45x39mm M74 bullet. Yaw variation can be a result of both AOA and/or fleet yaw issue.”


Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were recently elucidated by the JSWB-IPT. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges (usually under 25 m) and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles. Projectile impact angle-of-Attack (AOA) variability is caused by bullet to bullet variations at impact and can substantially alter wound severity; this factor is more prevalent with certain calibers and projectile types. Testing demonstrated that 5.56 mm is highly susceptible to AOA variations, particularly when using FMJ projectiles such as M193 & M855. For example, with 5.56 mm FMJ, at higher AOA’s, for example 2-3 degrees, bullets had a shorter neck length (NL) and upset rapidly, thus providing adequate terminal effects; at low AOA, like 0-1 degree, the projectiles penetrated deeper than ideal prior to initial upset (ie. long NL) with significantly reduced terminal effects. Note that other calibers were less susceptible to AOA variations than 5.56 mm, OTM’s tend to have less AOA issues than FMJ, while PT and JSP’s tend to not have major AOA induced terminal performance changes. Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance AOA variation caused by inherent variability in each rifle; Fleet Yaw is caused by weapon to weapon variations separate from projectile induced AOA issues. What this means is that two shooters firing the same lot of 5.56 mm FMJ from their M4’s with identical shot placement can have dramatically different terminal performance results: one shooter states that his ammo is working great and is effective at dropping bad guys, while the other complains his opponents are not being incapacitated because his 5.56 mm FMJ is zipping right through the targets without upsetting. Both shooters are telling the truth.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:31 PM   #27
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And one more.

Quote:
8/23/11

For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:


Dr. Fackler:
In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 198 shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highcaliber View Post
One of my personal favorites is the Federal T556TNB1 Fed 5.56 62gr OTM also known as MK318.

I'm also a big fan of the 75gr & 77gr Hornady TAP line.

However, if you decide you can ONLY have ONE type stored in larger quantity, then I'd suggest any of the Federal M193 bulk ammo.

You can read more about some of the reasons for this M193 choice here: :: Ammo Oracle
Quote:
Originally Posted by cz75luver View Post
I personally stocked up on the Federal 62gr OTM (Mk318 Mod-0) round. According to the DocGKR (5.56 mm Duty Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums):

More information about the Mk318: MK318 Mod 0 - accuracy evaluation and chronograph data - M4Carbine.net Forums

When it comes between shotgun and AR (Home Defense Long Guns - M4Carbine.net Forums):
I have read the same articles and came up with the same info/idea.
I have started to stock up on the Mk318 Mod 0 rounds. Luckily, one of the stores local to me has them. I only have 100rds right now, but I plan on picking up more. I have the 60 or so rounds of the Hornady TAP 60gr too. Also, since I have a 1:9 twist on my AR, I'll probably pick up some of the Federal 69gr otm as well, since supposedly I can't/shouldn't try for anything heavier.
I just need to continue to stock up...on as much as possible.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:47 PM   #29
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As stated before MK318, or Black hills 5.56 50g TSX
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:19 PM   #30
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This might be a stupid question, I'm not sure.

If you are planning on a 16" carbine or mid-length with at least the thought of having it as a what-if HD gun, and the 55gr fragmenting 5.56/.223 is kind of what you're looking at (more on that in question #2);

1) What barrel twist is ideal for 55gr? Several of you are saying the 55gr Hornady TAP is a good choice. I've read 55 gr is kind of in the middle where 1:7 and 1:9 will both shoot it fine. If you are sort of planning on 55gr. as your HD round, would one barrel twist be better than the other or does it really matter in that scenario?

2) Suppressors: If you are getting an AR with a mindset as a SD/HD weapon, should you be factoring a sound suppressor into the equation, and if so would the 300blk be worth weighing into the discussion? I'm just thinking of how that would factor with things like subsonic rounds, relative possible (over)penetration of one round over the other, ballistics with a suppressor, hearing loss (and if you'd be able to find your earmuffs should you ever be somehow in a position to and then forced to grab your AR-15 as a means of defense), etc., etc., etc. I suppose this could be seen as an excuse for any/all of us to get a 300blk upper as well as whatever else we have, however that is not really what I am going for.

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