Ammo Question

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by ThumperIII

At least you will know it will burn clean, probably very consistent accuracy, loads easy, and low recoil/fast recovery. At that price it would be hard to beat even reloading.

Not really, you can easily reload 40 for half that. Same for the cheap Tula/Wolf in any caliber. You can reload fat better/accurate/reliable ammo than that for 1/2 the cost. Get some free lead & shoot 45acp for the cost of a box of high end 22lr, about $2/50.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Thorander

Much high praise has been given to the stopping power of 9mm 124gr or 127gr +P loads used by law enforcement, going at about 1250 fps. The Ranger .40 135gr going at 1200 fps has more momentum and energy than either of the hot 9mm's. Besides that, I'm shooting the load from a 4.5" XDm barrel which should increase the velocity of the 135gr somewhat.

I'll grant that the penetration should be less than with a heavier bullet. But here I am, NOT law enforcement, NOT having the need for the penetration law enforcement has a need for. And here's a load that dumps about 432 fp of energy into about 9 inches of penetration.
.

Like Cuda notes, SD suffers badly. All things being equal, a lighter bullet of larger dia penetrates much less than the same wt bullet in a smaller caliber. So a 135gr/40 is not like the 127gr+P 9mm at all.
125gr 9mm = SD of 0.142
110gr 357 = SD of 0.123
135gr 40 = SD of 0.121
155gr 40 = SD of 0.138
100gr 380 = SD of 0.113
185gr 45 = SD of 0.130
So drive all those bullets @ the same vel, same construction & the 380 will penetrate just a bit less than a 135gr/40, the 9mm goes a lot further. Back when they used to load smoking hot 100gr 9mm SP, they were considered poor penetrators @ 1300-1350fps (PowerPoints). Same for the 110gr 357mag, terrible performer in the field.
IMO, it's far to light a bullet unless it were designed to stay together, like a monometal Barnes / DPX or bonded w/ small cup point. Big guys, bad angles or interm barriers are going to defeat such a poor SD bullet. You are better off in std JHP designs to stay above an SD of 0.130, 0.140 better still IMO. Yes it's arbitrary, but ya gotta start somewhere.

[Thorander]

Originally Posted by Cuda66

The penetration will be reduced not because of the heavier bullet (all things being equal, a heavier bullet in a given caliber--say a 165gr vs a 135 gr--will penetrate more), but because of lessened sectional density.

Second--why do you think you need less penetration than a LE load? Will the bad guys you face be skinnier? Will they be less likely to have their arms in front of their chest, or be turned at an oblique angle, requiring you to penetrate the chest the long way?

And, let me reiterate for the third time today (although not to you, personally)--foot/pounds mean NOTHING in how effective a round will be at incapaciting an attacker.

Oops. I meant to say that the penetration should be MORE with a heavier bullet, all else being equal--just a hiccup between my brain and my fingers as I wrote. Thanks, I'll edit my post.

Two reasons why a LEO might need more penetrative rounds: First, the LEO may be required to shoot through barriers (car glass and doors, as examples) to immobilize wrong-doers. Second, I think the LEO is more likely to have to take shots from that oblique angle, through thicker body parts.

As for me, a non-LEO, it's more likely any shots I may have to take won't be through hard barriers, and will be taken face to face through the narrower part of the body, front to back. From the front, the heart isn't that far into the body. Maybe his arm will be in the way as you say, but even with that, it still would be a narrower shot to the heart from front to back than from side to side. I wouldn't be trying to punch him through and through, I'd want the bullets to stay in him. Given good bullet construction, the expansion at 1200fps will happen just as well with a 135gr bullet as with a 155 or 165.

Sorry, I don't believe that a bullet's energy dump within the body means NOTHING. It's not everything, but I cannot believe it doesn't contribute to the stop. Of course CNS and blood loss are huge factors, but so are multiple hits. I think the multiple hits are more likely to be quicker with reduced recoil. I'm not saying hydrostatic shock happens with handgun velocities. But immediate stops do happen where blood loss and head or spine shots don't seem to be involved. Rapid multiple hits make that more likely to happen.

[Cuda66]

Originally Posted by Thorander

Oops. I meant to say that the penetration should be MORE with a heavier bullet, all else being equal--just a hiccup between my brain and my fingers as I wrote. Thanks, I'll edit my post.

Two reasons why a LEO might need more penetrative rounds: First, the LEO may be required to shoot through barriers (car glass and doors, as examples) to immobilize wrong-doers. Second, I think the LEO is more likely to have to take shots from that oblique angle, through thicker body parts.

As for me, a non-LEO, it's more likely any shots I may have to take won't be through hard barriers, and will be taken face to face through the narrower part of the body, front to back. From the front, the heart isn't that far into the body. Maybe his arm will be in the way as you say, but even with that, it still would be a narrower shot to the heart from front to back than from side to side. I wouldn't be trying to punch him through and through, I'd want the bullets to stay in him. Given good bullet construction, the expansion at 1200fps will happen just as well with a 135gr bullet as with a 155 or 165.

Sorry, I don't believe that a bullet's energy dump within the body means NOTHING. It's not everything, but I cannot believe it doesn't contribute to the stop. Of course CNS and blood loss are huge factors, but so are multiple hits. I think the multiple hits are more likely to be quicker with reduced recoil. I'm not saying hydrostatic shock happens with handgun velocities. But immediate stops do happen where blood loss and head or spine shots don't seem to be involved. Rapid multiple hits make that more likely to happen.

Take two bullets, one with 500 foot-pounds, one with 400.

Each bullet penetrates the same distance, and opens up to the same diameter.

As far as terminal effect, there will be no difference. The only perceivable difference will be at the shooter's end, with the higher energy round having more recoil (if Newton knew what he was talking about, that is).

As to the reasons why you think less penetration is a good thing...well, it's your life. I'll take the FBI certified loads any day (and I'm not an LEO, either...I just refuse to discount the possibility of needing a bullet that performs just as well).

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Thorander

As for me, a non-LEO, it's more likely any shots I may have to take won't be through hard barriers, and will be taken face to face through the narrower part of the body, front to back. From the front, the heart isn't that far into the body. Maybe his arm will be in the way as you say, but even with that, it still would be a narrower shot to the heart from front to back than from side to side. I wouldn't be trying to punch him through and through, I'd want the bullets to stay in him. Given good bullet construction, the expansion at 1200fps will happen just as well with a 135gr bullet as with a 155 or 165.
.

Planning for the best case scenario is a disater waiting to happen iMO. Gunfights are dynamic, fluid events. To think that the BG is going to stay face on & be only 5-10/160# is just not well thought out. Think 6-2/275# & as the fight starts he goes gangster style on you & turns his body 90deg from you. Now you are both moving, you have no guarantee a shot is going to even come close to thinnest part of the BG anatomy. Add heavy leather jacket, big forearm (mine is 4"+ across, I'm 5-10/190#), you are going to run out of penetration sooner than later w/ a light for caliber expanding bullet.
The recoil diff between that load & a 180gr @ 900fps is minimal if any at all. The 180gr JHP will get there, the 135gr may not. It's not so much about the expansion as the penetration. WHile I am not all over the FBI minimums, 12" (thru the shoulder to the heart on an avg size man) is not a bad base line. Your choice, just understand the dynamics of it before deciding it is THE load for you. I am not a 9mm fan, but compared to a low vel 135gr/40, I would rather have the 124gr+P 9mm load. At least you'll get 2 more rounds to finish the fight with.

[Thorander]

Originally Posted by Cuda66

Take two bullets, one with 500 foot-pounds, one with 400.

Each bullet penetrates the same distance, and opens up to the same diameter.

As far as terminal effect, there will be no difference. The only perceivable difference will be at the shooter's end, with the higher energy round having more recoil (if Newton knew what he was talking about, that is).

As to the reasons why you think less penetration is a good thing...well, it's your life. I'll take the FBI certified loads any day (and I'm not an LEO, either...I just refuse to discount the possibility of needing a bullet that performs just as well).

Take a bullet, say a 100 grain from a .327 Fed Mag. (actual bullet diameter .312) going at 1400 fps with 435 foot-pounds of energy. Sectional density is .147.

Take another bullet, say a 200 grain cast lead target load from a .45ACP going at 700 fps with 218 foot-pounds of energy. Sectional density is .140.

Now say the .312 bullet expands to 1.5 times its diameter, whereas the .452 bullet doesn't expand. Shoot them both at water jugs. You don't think the terminal effect will be different?

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Thorander

Take a bullet, say a 100 grain from a .327 Fed Mag. (actual bullet diameter .312) going at 1400 fps with 435 foot-pounds of energy. Sectional density is .147.

Take another bullet, say a 200 grain cast lead target load from a .45ACP going at 700 fps with 218 foot-pounds of energy. Sectional density is .140.

Now say the .312 bullet expands to 1.5 times its diameter, whereas the .452 bullet doesn't expand. Shoot them both at water jugs. You don't think the terminal effect will be different?

The problem w/ water jug test is the mass is so small, the energy is not absorbed & you get spectacular results. Fire that same load into a 50# stack of wetpack & tell me what you get? Energy matters some, but it's not the end all to be all in handgun rounds. 200ft# isn't a deal breaker if the bullet has enough momentum to reach vitals. In your example, the 200grLSCW/45 is more likely to penetrate deeper. The SD changes as the bullet expands, so while the 327 may reach 46 caliber, it will have slowed along the way. The 200grLSWC starts out 45caliber & will stay 45cal, making penetration a bit further as it isn't losing SD along the way. That is how it works. Much of the 327 energy will be used expanding the bullet to get to 46cal. So you get a large entrance wound, small perm cav. The 45 will have a small entrance wound w/ larger perm cav as it goes deeper.

[Thorander]

Originally Posted by fredj338

The problem w/ water jug test is the mass is so small, the energy is not absorbed & you get spectacular results. Fire that same load into a 50# stack of wetpack & tell me what you get? Energy matters some, but it's not the end all to be all in handgun rounds. 200ft# isn't a deal breaker if the bullet has enough momentum to reach vitals. In your example, the 200grLSCW/45 is more likely to penetrate deeper. The SD changes as the bullet expands, so while the 327 may reach 46 caliber, it will have slowed along the way. The 200grLSWC starts out 45caliber & will stay 45cal, making penetration a bit further as it isn't losing SD along the way. That is how it works. Much of the 327 energy will be used expanding the bullet to get to 46cal. So you get a large entrance wound, small perm cav. The 45 will have a small entrance wound w/ larger perm cav as it goes deeper.

"Energy matters some..." That's what I said posts ago. "I don't believe that a bullet's energy dump within the body means NOTHING. It's not everything.... Of course CNS and blood loss are huge factors...."

But we're getting off the real point here. Does this Ranger 135gr .40 load have the wherewithal to be a SD load? So far, all I've heard is what I've read. I like to see some gelatin test results, and just for fun, I'd like to shoot it against some water jugs. I'd like to bust a watermelon too. Maybe most important to me, I do need to know if it feeds reliably in my gun.

My son works with testing all sorts of things for the military. He was telling me that engineers come up with all sorts of things they say will work, but they are frustrated when reality hits, and things don't work. The opposite idea is true. Things some people say won't work, somehow do. The proof of the pudding as far as this load is concerned will be the real world.

By the way, are any of you guys engineers?

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Thorander

"Energy matters some..." That's what I said posts ago. "I don't believe that a bullet's energy dump within the body means NOTHING. It's not everything.... Of course CNS and blood loss are huge factors...."

But we're getting off the real point here. Does this Ranger 135gr .40 load have the wherewithal to be a SD load? So far, all I've heard is what I've read. I like to see some gelatin test results, and just for fun, I'd like to shoot it against some water jugs. I'd like to bust a watermelon too. Maybe most important to me, I do need to know if it feeds reliably in my gun.

My son works with testing all sorts of things for the military. He was telling me that engineers come up with all sorts of things they say will work, but they are frustrated when reality hits, and things don't work. The opposite idea is true. Things some people say won't work, somehow do. The proof of the pudding as far as this load is concerned will be the real world.

By the way, are any of you guys engineers?

Well, cerrtainly test for yourself, but I don't see where shooting water meolns or water jugs really tells you much. If your happy w/ it, hey , your ammo, your decision. I just think you should understand that it is what it is, better than FMJ, but IMO, there are better choices for an all around SD/HD load. Your chance of gettting into a gunfight are slim & none anyway, so the real point is; can you react & shoot well enough to put bullets where they need to go, on the move, in low light, etc? That is really what matters. The bullet is seconadary but still important.