9MM, long distance accuracy

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Cuda66

You'd be surprised as to the accuracy of a lot of carry pistols...it's the accuracy of those who carry them that come into question.

I think a lot of people that think long range shooting with a handgun is simply an impossible feat have never given it a serious try.

BTW--I, personally, can go six for six with a 4" S&W 686. Offhand. It's not that hard.

A S&W 686 revolver is not a stock glock. I think you'd be surprised at the inaccuracy of most stock carry guns at distance. Mount in a rest and see for yourself. A stock glock hitting 8" 10 for 10 at 100 yds is better than a vice. Your friend will establish the next new world record with that level of performance if you put an accurate gun in his hands.

Handgun long range shooting is hardly an impossible feat. The silouette guys prove that at really long range every time. They don't use production guns though. What is impossible is doing it every time with a production auto with mass produced ammo.

If you told me the gong was two feet at 100 yds, a glock will group 10 shots into that. 8" at 100 from any production auto with off the shelf ammo is extremely unusual.

[Cuda66]

With my 9mm G34, I can usually hit slightly better than 50% on the 8" gong. Slightly less with a G17. Both stock.

I can do a little better with a stock G21.

It's not that hard with carry handguns, either.

Like I said, next time I see him, I'll let him know...

[dglock]

Originally Posted by Boris

Right now the most accurate "defense" 9mm ammo I have is Fiocchi Extrema loaded with 124 XTPs. I also have some BlackHills 124 XTP +P loads that are just as accurate. The OP rolled his eyes at the 9BP load. I have a good bit of 9BPLE right now that rivals them XTP loads in the accuracy department. Goldensaber 147s have been very very accurate for me too.

This next load I will link is the most accurate factory ball load I have fired from any pistol.

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Fiocchi 158gr. Sub-Sonic FMJ Ammo [9APE] - $14.95

It is barely more accurate, but it is awesome and I forgot to mention it in my first post.

Operative word here is accurate in YOUR pistol! The same load may not be in another pistol.

don

[Boris]

Originally Posted by dglock

Operative word here is accurate in YOUR pistol! The same load may not be in another pistol.

don

You're not telling me anything new there. What I will let you I know though is that from a CZ75 compact, two G19s, HK USP tactical and HK USP compact, and one XD9, that 158 grain load has been the most accurate ball load from them.

Sure would not hurt to give it a try. Even if it was not the most accurate I bet it will be right up there with any other load he might try.

Noting wrong with pointing someone in the right direction....

[00firebird]

if you think 100 yards is crazy, how about 230 yards.

G23

YouTube - Glock 23 At 230 Yards

YouTube - Glock 23 At 230 Yards

DE .44

YouTube - Desert Eagle 44 mag at 230 yards

YouTube - Desert Eagle 44 mag at 230 yards

1911

YouTube - 1911 at 230 Yards

YouTube - 1911 at 230 Yards

it has everything to do with the shooter. Bullets or guns dont just "become inaccurate" because the distance is further. Physics still apply and that bullet is still going to land exactly where you point it, if you are capable of doing so.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by 00firebird

if you think 100 yards is crazy, how about 230 yards.

G23
YouTube - Glock 23 At 230 Yards
DE .44
YouTube - Desert Eagle 44 mag at 230 yards
1911
YouTube - 1911 at 230 Yards

it has everything to do with the shooter. Bullets or guns dont just "become inaccurate" because the distance is further. Physics still apply and that bullet is still going to land exactly where you point it, if you are capable of doing so.

He was clearly an Olympic shooter. I bet he has several gold metals hidden behind the camera.

Now give us a video of a regular person doing that...

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by 00firebird

Bullets or guns dont just "become inaccurate" because the distance is further. Physics still apply and that bullet is still going to land exactly where you point it, if you are capable of doing so.

I humbly suggest that if you believe that, you have never really tested guns and loads. In a handgun, the distance at which the good guns and loads are separated from the also rans is about 50 yds. An inch at 25 yds doesn't translate simply into 2" at 50 or 4" at a hundred because there is alot more actually going on than simple geometry and the physics of it is actually very complicated. The easiest (and maybe only) way to convince yourself that this is true is to actually test it empirically in a ransom rest.

By way of an easy and maybe extreme example to show what I'm getting at -- if a rifle / load combination shoots 1 MOA at 100 yds (about an inch), will it shoot 1 MOA at 600 yds (about 6")? Conversely, if a rifle load combination shoots 1 MOA at 600 yds (about 6") will it be able to hold an inch at 100 yds? Almost always, the answer to both of the foregoing questions is "no" even though the simple geometry and very basic physics of it might suggest otherwise. There is just a lot more going on.

As for the 230 yd shots, suffice it to say that the gong is gigantic and the hit ratio generous. I'm not saying the guy isn't an incredibly good shot -- no doubt about that. As far as a ten shot group size though, if I had to guess my guess would be in excess of 8 feet and possibly a good bit more than that (watch some of the misses several feet from the gong, which is itself over two feet across). Again, this guy can really shoot but I will bet you whatever you want that he can do better than 4 feet at a hundred and way better than two feet at fifty, and way way better than a foot at 25, etc. It's not just a straight line geometric solution in either direction. Hitting a gong over two feet across at 230 does involve much more complexity than the simple geometry of grouping one foot at 100, 6 inches at 50 and 3 inches at 25. If a pistol can group 3 inches at 25, would that same gun / ammo combination group a little over 2 feet at 230? -- almost always, no -- not even close.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

I humbly suggest that if you believe that, you have never really tested guns and loads. In a handgun, the distance at which the good guns and loads are separated from the also rans is about 50 yds. An inch at 25 yds doesn't translate simply into 2" at 50 or 4" at a hundred because there is alot more actually going on than simple geometry and the physics of it is actually very complicated. The easiest (and maybe only) way to convince yourself that this is true is to actually test it empirically in a ransom rest.

By way of an easy and maybe extreme example to show what I'm getting at -- if a rifle / load combination shoots 1 MOA at 100 yds (about an inch), will it shoot 1 MOA at 600 yds (about 6")? Conversely, if a rifle load combination shoots 1 MOA at 600 yds (about 6") will it be able to hold an inch at 100 yds? Almost always, the answer to both of the foregoing questions is "no" even though the simple geometry and very basic physics of it might suggest otherwise. There is just a lot more going on.

As for the 230 yd shots, suffice it to say that the gong is gigantic and the hit ratio generous. I'm not saying the guy isn't an incredibly good shot -- no doubt about that. As far as a ten shot group size though, if I had to guess my guess would be in excess of 8 feet and possibly a good bit more than that (watch some of the misses several feet from the gong, which is itself over two feet across). Again, this guy can really shoot but I will bet you whatever you want that he can do better than 4 feet at a hundred and way better than two feet at fifty, and way way better than a foot at 25, etc. It's not just a straight line geometric solution in either direction. Hitting a gong over two feet across at 230 does involve much more complexity than the simple geometry of grouping one foot at 100, 6 inches at 50 and 3 inches at 25. If a pistol can group 3 inches at 25, would that same gun / ammo combination group a little over 2 feet at 230? -- almost always, no -- not even close.

You sound like the guy at a range I used to shoot at. He had a $3,000.00 Les Baer on the 25 yard plate line. the plates in question were 4". I watched him empty several magazines and not touch a single plate. The old feller had the intestinal fortitude to laugh at the G19 when I set it down. He went through the normal expert dialogue. I just asked my wife to set her 22rf rifle down and come over to the plate line. She fired 7 rounds and hit all 6 of the plates. He said not another word and just packed up and went home. I won't even go into detail about what I have done. I see no need. If we ever meet and you tell me such and such a shot can not be made I will just have my wife show ya how its done. Even my 7yo boy can hit 20oz soda bottles regularly at 25 yards with a P22.....

Just because you cann't do it or do not know anyone that can........

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Boris

You sound like the guy at a range I used to shoot at. He had a $3,000.00 Les Baer on the 25 yard plate line. the plates in question were 4". I watched him empty several magazines and not touch a single plate. The old feller had the intestinal fortitude to laugh at the G19 when I set it down. He went through the normal expert dialogue. I just asked my wife to set her 22rf rifle down and come over to the plate line. She fired 7 rounds and hit all 6 of the plates. He said not another word and just packed up and went home. I won't even go into detail about what I have done. I see no need. If we ever meet and you tell me such and such a shot can not be made I will just have my wife show ya how its done. Even my 7yo boy can hit 20oz soda bottles regularly at 25 yards with a P22.....

Just because you cann't do it or do not know anyone that can........

You're missing the point. We're talking about the mechanical accuracy of a pistol at 100 yds.

What that has to do with plinking at pop bottles or steel at 25 yds I don't see. Your wife and boy are likely fine shots at 25 yds. They hit 4" objects "regularly" at that distance -- good for you.

I admit I don't know anyone that can take a stock pistol that generally mechanically can't group better than a foot at 100 yds (usually much, much worse) and make it shoot better than that. The "shot" to be made that we're talking about is ten into 8" group at 100 yds with a stock semi-auto pistol. The pistol itself won't do it -- shooter is irrelevant; a vice won't do it. I'm guessing you can? Maybe your wife can too?

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

You're missing the point. We're talking about the mechanical accuracy of a pistol at 100 yds.

What that has to do with plinking at pop bottles or steel at 25 yds I don't see. Your wife and boy are likely fine shots at 25 yds. They hit 4" objects "regularly" at that distance -- good for you.

I admit I don't know anyone that can take a stock pistol that generally mechanically can't group better than a foot at 100 yds (usually much, much worse) and make it shoot better than that. The "shot" to be made that we're talking about is ten into 8" group at 100 yds with a stock semi-auto pistol. The pistol itself won't do it -- shooter is irrelevant; a vice won't do it. I'm guessing you can? Maybe your wife can too?

I have to agree, I don't see many service pistols shoooting 8" @ 100yds off a bench. I can hit 8" palates @ 100 w/ my tuned 1911, but it will do under 1 1/2" @ 25yds too, most service guns can't do that either. It's why I am not a fan of the 10mm in a Glcok or any other semiauto I have tried. Just can't groups I am happy w/ at 50yds.