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.40 Cal home defense ammo

This is a discussion on .40 Cal home defense ammo within the The Ammo Can forums, part of the Armory Talk category; Originally Posted by Cuda66 Here's one about a guy hitting hit by a .45, unsuspectingly at point-blank range... pistol-training.com How I Got Shot One would ...


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Old 06-23-2010, 11:05 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
Here's one about a guy hitting hit by a .45, unsuspectingly at point-blank range...

pistol-training.com How I Got Shot

One would think if your knockdown effect/kinetic energy incapacitation theory had any legs to it, this guy would've been thrown for a loop...but no, he was able to function just fine (for a bit)--(ETA--besides the use of his arm...which would make sense since the slug turned his elbow into a random box of tinkertoys).
From the that very same article:
Quote:
The victim described himself as shocked but lucid, with the pain setting in rapidly over the first five minutes
No. Yeah, you're right. "Shocked" sounds nothing like stunned.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:06 PM   #42
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Those assertions of a round not stunning a target are only made my me? I thought Cudda had also made them. By the way those assertions are not mine they are from the same people I posted links to. Like I said everything I've saying I'm actually posting reference material to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
Knockdown power is a myth. Period. Ask people who have taken a shot, and they tend to refer to the impact as feeling like getting hit by a solid punch, or a baseball bat...which, when talking about ft/lbs, is about in the same category. In short...if a bullet actually had the power to knock the target down, it would knock the shooter down.

Ike Newton knew what he was talking about...
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Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
So...if those rounds will only move a 3.5lb bowling pin less than a foot...do you honestly think they're gonna knock a 150lb person down?

Kinda defys basic physics, don't it?
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Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
Knockdown power is a myth. Period. Ask people who have taken a shot, and they tend to refer to the impact as feeling like getting hit by a solid punch, or a baseball bat...which, when talking about ft/lbs, is about in the same category. In short...if a bullet actually had the power to knock the target down, it would knock the shooter down.

Ike Newton knew what he was talking about...
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Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
An there is no proven correlation between energy dump and your "stunning effect".

There are only two reliable factors in stopping someone with a handgun round.

1--CNS hit. Iffy at best.
2--Exsanguination--which means a deep wound getting to blood bearing structure, preferably a wide-channel one to promote bleed out and have a better chance of hitting those blood vessels.


I strongly recommend you read the previous posted FBI study. These are folks who know what they are talking about, and they make no mention of kinetic energy/stunning power theories.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:07 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by QBiN View Post
Who said I didn't want something that left the biggest wound possible?

agalindo, the GRIP reduces the felt recoil, so do things like Hogue gel pads, etc. Unless you're striking the revolver round with a pin mounted to the front of your pointing finger; then the weight, size, and material of a revolver ALL go towards dissipating the felt recoil.

As far as calling you Rambo men, I wouldn've figured you'd both take it as a complement given the denial taking a round wouldn't stun you. Cuda, all in all, I really don't think we're disagreeing all that much. I never said wounding effects weren't important. It was more meant as sarcastic hyperbole for agalindo, for his assertions a round will defy physics, not impart any kinetic energy, and won't stun a target.
And here's my point: kinetic energy is not a good measure of the effectiveness of any given round. Of course it's going to deliver kinetic energy...I haven't heard any body say otherwise...but energy dump alone don't cut it.

As to the stunning effects...it's far too hit-and-miss (imho) to be a reliable factor in stopping a dangerous threat; some people just stop and give up at the slightest gunshot wound...other people don't seem to notice mortal wounds for quite some time (look up the actions of some CMOH recipients...especially posthumous ones). So while I'm not necessarily discounting it as possible...I sure wouldn't count on it to be effective in any situation where my life would be on the line.

Annnd with that, I bid y'all good night.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by agalindo View Post
Those assertions of a round not stunning a target are only made my me? I thought Cudda had also made them. By the way those assertions are not mine they are from the same people I posted links to. Like I said everything I've saying I'm actually posting reference material to.
well since he didn't like my precanned argument read it yourself here is the link from actual FBI human test

pg 8 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:15 PM   #45
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Wait I just got here with the popcorn! Holy knock down power debate Batman.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:16 PM   #46
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As to the original post, I use Cor-Bon 140gr DPX. I have tested it against other rounds and it performs very well and expanded perfectly every time, even through multiple layers of denim. On several other manufacturers HP rounds, the denim plugged the point and the rounds did not expand or expanded poorly. That is what convinced me to buy it.

As for the velocity/energy debate I think we need to look at Newton again. An object in motion tends to stay in motion until another force acts on it, right?

If the force acting against a bullet is the same for every other bullet, one can reasonably assume that a light bullet going the same speed as a heavy bullet will stop sooner as it has less kinetic energy. In order for that lighter bullet to penetrate to the same depth, it will need to have a greater velocity at impact.

As long as the velocity of the lighter bullet is adequate to achieve the same penetration as the heavy bullet, there is little reason to think the lighter bullet is any worse or better than the heavy bullet. Basically, the debate between light and fast vs heavy and slow has been tossed around for ages and there are plenty of arguments for and against both sides.

All you can do is find a reputable ammunition manufacturer that has performed reasonable tests with verifiable results. If the results are adequate to perform according to what studies of real world shootings demand, then you should be good to go.

All the rest is just opinion.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:17 PM   #47
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Cudda he seems to agree with you about Newton's law while he disagrees with me about the same law? How is that, that you're Newton's law is right while mine isn't?
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
And here's my point: kinetic energy is not a good measure of the effectiveness of any given round. Of course it's going to deliver kinetic energy...I haven't heard any body say otherwise...but energy dump alone don't cut it.

As to the stunning effects...it's far too hit-and-miss (imho) to be a reliable factor in stopping a dangerous threat; some people just stop and give up at the slightest gunshot wound...other people don't seem to notice mortal wounds for quite some time (look up the actions of some CMOH recipients...especially posthumous ones). So while I'm not necessarily discounting it as possible...I sure wouldn't count on it to be effective in any situation where my life would be on the line.

Annnd with that, I bid y'all good night.
Agreed. Kinetic energy is not a good measure of effectiveness in and of itself. However, it cannot be counted out. As agalindo said
Quote:
Originally Posted by agalindo
Don't get caught up in the "muzzle energy thing"
My point was to bring to bear the physics and say, Hey, the muzzle energy is what is making the rest of these other effects possible and can't be discounted. It literally drives the rest of the equation. That kinetic energy will be noticed whether it leaves a hole in you or gets lodged between layers of kevlar in your vest. You're going to feel it. That's all. If you (general public) say you won't feel it, you're either blindly denying physics are maybe really are a Rambo man. Who knows which.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:25 PM   #49
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Cudda he seems to agree with you about Newton's law while he disagrees with me about the same law? How is that, that you're Newton's law is right while mine isn't?
I don't disagree with Newton's law, just your understanding of it in practice.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by QBiN View Post
Agreed. Kinetic energy is not a good measure of effectiveness in and of itself. However, it cannot be counted out. As agalindo said

My point was to bring to bear the physics and say, Hey, the muzzle energy is what is making the rest of these other effects possible and can't be discounted. It literally drives the rest of the equation. That kinetic energy will be noticed whether it leaves a hole in you or gets lodged between layers of kevlar in your vest. You're going to feel it. That's all. If you (general public) say you won't feel it, you're either blindly denying physics are maybe really are a Rambo man. Who knows which.
that theory is a myth and was totally refuted

since I cannot copy the article it is once more here
pg 16 the conclusion
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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