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.40 Cal home defense ammo

This is a discussion on .40 Cal home defense ammo within the The Ammo Can forums, part of the Armory Talk category; I use Federal HST's. You can almost always get them here: HOLLOW POINT Ammo : Ammunition To Go If you see a message saying available ...


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Old 06-23-2010, 04:10 PM   #11
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I use Federal HST's. You can almost always get them here: HOLLOW POINT Ammo : Ammunition To Go

If you see a message saying available only to law enforcement agencies ignore it. I am not an LE agency and have never been refused an order.

Also, don't worry about what your local agencies carry unless you know they meet FBI standards. Some departments get what the lowest bidder offers them with out doing any testing themselves.

You cannot go wrong with HST's, Ranger T's or Gold Dots. All three meet FBI standards. You can check out some tests here:

LE - Wound Ballistics

Watch the videos. Very impressive results.

Also no need to worry about +p's with the .40. There is no such thing. .40's are already max pressure.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:57 PM   #12
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Even though those 135gr rounds are not on Anyone's fancy approved list, I recall some home tests showing they're more than capable of meeting min requirements, and they expand nicely. You can find them for $22.xx at walmart in the stripped box from Federal. They're a 135gr HST round.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:11 PM   #13
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I have Corbon 135 gr in mine at the moment.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by agalindo View Post
Don't get caught up in the "muzzle energy thing" All the bullets listed pass FBI/IWBA protocols. In pistol rounds once the round penetrates the required minimum and expands the excess muzzle energy and velocity will not wound via "energy dump-hydorstatic shock" it will just add to recoil and muzzle blast.
Agalindo, I have to disagree with you there. I don't necessarily disagree with the hydrostatic shock arugment. However, disregarding muzzle velocity or energy is akin to saying steam is not water vapor... it just flies in the face of common physics.

Granted, there are a LOT of factors that play into a given cartridge's effectiveness. Nonetheless, a bullet of a given weight carries momentum proportional to its velocity. Assuming a bullet can sufficiently expand, the more of that energy that is imparted to it's target, the more devastating that round's stopping power will be. Period.

If your point is to say, "don't worry all these rounds are in the same league", then I'd agree. If you're saying, "more muzzle energy is bad because it's wasted on recoil", then I feel you're wrong there. You might as well as say .45 ACP is overkill compared to 9mm, when it's just not that simple.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by jhaines View Post
I use Winchester PDX1 180gr.
+1 I have them in my XDM40 4.5,but i there 165gr...

Also i have ..
Winchester HP 180gr white Box
Corbon 180g
Gold Dots 165gr In my XD40sc..

IMHO its what LEO's use to protech them.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by QBiN View Post
Agalindo, I have to disagree with you there. I don't necessarily disagree with the hydrostatic shock arugment. However, disregarding muzzle velocity or energy is akin to saying steam is not water vapor... it just flies in the face of common physics.

Granted, there are a LOT of factors that play into a given cartridge's effectiveness. Nonetheless, a bullet of a given weight carries momentum proportional to its velocity. Assuming a bullet can sufficiently expand, the more of that energy that is imparted to it's target, the more devastating that round's stopping power will be. Period.

If your point is to say, "don't worry all these rounds are in the same league", then I'd agree. If you're saying, "more muzzle energy is bad because it's wasted on recoil", then I feel you're wrong there. You might as well as say .45 ACP is overkill compared to 9mm, when it's just not that simple.
When talking pistol rounds once the energy used to penetrate and expand is met any "energy" dumped on the target is not going to do any significant wounding. Pistol rounds have neither the velocity or energy to wound via temporary cavity. The shock of the bullet hitting is not going to do damage. The only thing that wounds is the size of the hole the bullet makes and the depth of the hole.
No the .45 ACP has an edge but it's not because of the foot pounds of energy it has it's because it's bigger diameter makes a bigger hole.


From FBI Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness.
FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com
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Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."(42,43)

Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet. (44)
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by agalindo View Post
When talking pistol rounds once the energy used to penetrate and expand is met any "energy" dumped on the target is not going to do any significant wounding. Pistol rounds have neither the velocity or energy to wound via temporary cavity. The shock of the bullet hitting is not going to do damage. The only thing that wounds is the size of the hole the bullet makes and the depth of the hole.
No the .45 ACP has an edge but it's not because of the foot pounds of energy it has it's because it's bigger diameter makes a bigger hole.
I don't disagree with your opinions of wounding. Nor do I disagree with any of the quoted material covering wounding. However, I really think you're discounting muzzle energy and it's resulting knockdown power. I'm not going to touch the temporary cavity claim. We're not only talking about wounding, but overall effectiveness in the choice of a particular round. So accounting for wounding without taking into account knock-down power is only half the equation.

Not including the muzzle energy is like assuming every shot will be a head or central nervous system shot. The whole reason wounding is so massive in HP rounds is precisely because the increased surface area of the round allows for more transfer of kinetic energy to the target.

The .45 ACP doesn't have an edge just because of it's wounding effects alone. With a decent hollow-point, it's kinetic energy also delivers a whopping punch to the target causing momentary incapacitation. You think getting shot with a bulletproof vest is a walk in the park? No? Why would that be? Knock-down power is just as critical. It bridges the time before the wounding effects of your rounds kick in and involuntary incapacitation takes the assailant out.

I don't want to derail the thread suffice to say all those rounds mentioned will do what agalindo has mentioned and more in .40 S&W. Try them out and see which one your pistol performs best with.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:09 PM   #18
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There is no such thing as knockdown power. The newton's law says "for every action there is and equal and opposite reaction" if a round could "knockdown" a human target it would knock down the shooter. The wound created by a hollow point is smaller than the size of the expanded bullet. The only place a bullet knocks down a person is on TV. There is no such thing as knock down power it's a myth created by TV and movies. I've shot 110 lb deer with a 30.06 and non of them fly back, they either fall straight down or run a bit then fall. You and I can agree that a 30.06 has thousands of foot pounds more energy than a .45. The reason some people fall instantly after being shot is that they either faint,




Quote:
Emotional shock, terror, or surprise can cause a person to faint, surrender, or flee when shot or shot at. Emotional fainting is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops", and not an intrinsic effectiveness quality of any firearm or bullet; there are many documented instances[citation needed] where people have instantly dropped unconscious when the bullet only hit an extremity, or even completely missed. Additionally, the muzzle blast and flash from many firearms are substantial and can cause disorientation, dazzling, and stunning effects.
Another link to good scientific information regarding terminal ballistics.
Federal Bureau of Investigation Law Enforcement Bulletin - October 2004 Issue

This one is from a guy who designs body armor.
Terminal Ballistics
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBiN View Post
I don't disagree with your opinions of wounding. Nor do I disagree with any of the quoted material covering wounding. However, I really think you're discounting muzzle energy and it's resulting knockdown power. I'm not going to touch the temporary cavity claim. We're not only talking about wounding, but overall effectiveness in the choice of a particular round. So accounting for wounding without taking into account knock-down power is only half the equation.

Not including the muzzle energy is like assuming every shot will be a head or central nervous system shot. The whole reason wounding is so massive in HP rounds is precisely because the increased surface area of the round allows for more transfer of kinetic energy to the target.

The .45 ACP doesn't have an edge just because of it's wounding effects alone. With a decent hollow-point, it's kinetic energy also delivers a whopping punch to the target causing momentary incapacitation. You think getting shot with a bulletproof vest is a walk in the park? No? Why would that be? Knock-down power is just as critical. It bridges the time before the wounding effects of your rounds kick in and involuntary incapacitation takes the assailant out.

I don't want to derail the thread suffice to say all those rounds mentioned will do what agalindo has mentioned and more in .40 S&W. Try them out and see which one your pistol performs best with.
Knockdown power is a myth. Period. Ask people who have taken a shot, and they tend to refer to the impact as feeling like getting hit by a solid punch, or a baseball bat...which, when talking about ft/lbs, is about in the same category. In short...if a bullet actually had the power to knock the target down, it would knock the shooter down.

Ike Newton knew what he was talking about...
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:35 PM   #20
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Ok agalindo (and your innumerous quotes). We'll just have to agree to disagree. lol. Hollow points that retain most of their mass impart no kinetic energy. It just evaporates into thin air (gelatin?). I might have drank the same cool-aid if we were talking about frangible rounds or RBCD's. Anyway... Newton is right. That's enough from me.

lol. Takes me back to my Carnegie Mellon days as a TA.
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