real world question

[hillbillychia]

great feedback, thanks for sharing it with me. this is the greatest forum ever. im actually hoping to never be in such a situation, but if i am, i will be ready. practice, practice, practice, right?

[SpringerFan]

Originally Posted by agalindo

Actually the rule is people keep going even after being shot, the one shot one stop is the exception. Also consider that statistics show that in a gun fight 90% to 80% of your shots will miss the bad guy. Percentage of shots hitting the target is 10-20%. That number is just hitting the target not center of mass hits.

Exactly why I choose larger calibers. If only a round or two is gonna hit the BG, I want them to be the biggest possible. Also should be noted, I know big strong guys that don't shoot .40/.45 very well due to recoil. A 9mm is easier to handle, so in theory better shot placement. Caliber choice is a personal one that should only be made after much deliberation.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by SpringerFan

Exactly why I choose larger calibers. If only a round or two is gonna hit the BG, I want them to be the biggest possible. Also should be noted, I know big strong guys that don't shoot .40/.45 very well due to recoil. A 9mm is easier to handle, so in theory better shot placement. Caliber choice is a personal one that should only be made after much deliberation.

Very true. regardless of what anyone tells you about caliber, only hits count. I'm working w/ a guy right now, trying to get him upto some level of competance to CCW, & he is determined to shoot his G36. The problem is he can't hit with it. So I finally talked him into a G19 for practice & hope he ends up carrying that. I love the 45acp, but I can hit with it just as well, as fast as a 9mm. So for me, here in Kommifornia where 10rds is the rule, I'll carry a 45acp unless I'm packing my G26.

[srad]

a word about the winchester bonded ammo a few posts back for the sake of the OP; the reason FBI & LEO institutions choose bonded ammo over non-bonded is that it's a much better round if you have to shoot through auto glass and hard barriers. For non LEO personal/home defense you may be better served with non-bonded ammo.

Unless a BG in a vehicle is chasing me or a loved one down, I certainly won't be shooting through a windshield or a vehicle, I'll be heading in the opposite direction to safety. If I have to engage a BG in a home defense encounter, I want misses to go through as few walls as possible... so my personal carry ammo is the non-bonded Winchester RA9124TP or RA9T

Just my $.02... whatever you choose though, make sure you take the time at the range to determine point-of-aim/point-of-impact and to make sure that that particular ammo feeds reliably and groups well for your particular firearm.

[srad]

hey hillbilly... if you're up for some more good reading with a smattering of boring technicals... here's a link to the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit study on Handgun Wounding Factors & Effectiveness

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

and Massad Ayoob's short video on Shoot to Live:

YouTube - Clip Shoot to live

YouTube - Clip Shoot to live

[jj79]

Originally Posted by srad

a word about the winchester bonded ammo a few posts back for the sake of the OP; the reason FBI & LEO institutions choose bonded ammo over non-bonded is that it's a much better round if you have to shoot through auto glass and hard barriers. For non LEO personal/home defense you may be better served with non-bonded ammo.

Unless a BG in a vehicle is chasing me or a loved one down, I certainly won't be shooting through a windshield or a vehicle, I'll be heading in the opposite direction to safety. If I have to engage a BG in a home defense encounter, I want misses to go through as few walls as possible... so my personal carry ammo is the non-bonded Winchester RA9124TP or RA9T

srad -

while I certainly agree with your logic as far as avoiding over-penetration... I'm not sure this would actually be a concern with the Win. Bonded ammo.

my understanding is, the ammo is not designed to provide additional penetration, but rather to insure adequate expansion despite passing through barriers...[and also to prevent core/jacket separation]

in other words, I'm not sure the bonded would penetrate any more walls, etc, than non-bonded would? [however, you make an excellent point, and one that deserves a definitive answer]

I'm betting Agalindo et al could provide a definite answer on this...?


-JJ

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by jj79

srad -

while I certainly agree with your logic as far as avoiding over-penetration... I'm not sure this would actually be a concern with the Win. Bonded ammo.

my understanding is, the ammo is not designed to provide additional penetration, but rather to insure adequate expansion despite passing through barriers...[and also to prevent core/jacket separation]

in other words, I'm not sure the bonded would penetrate any more walls, etc, than non-bonded would? [however, you make an excellent point, and one that deserves a definitive answer]

I'm betting Agalindo et al could provide a definite answer on this...?


-JJ

Typically, bonded bullets, by there design, penetrate all materials better. The core & jacket stay together giving more weight for momentum which = pentration. Also, most bonded bullets expand slightly less, also enhancing penetration. So I agree, for most HD/civ SD, a non bonded bullet will work slightly better.

[agalindo]

JJ79, Fred you guys are right the bonded bullets do not over penetrate, they are designed to penetrate within FBI parameters minimum 12" max of 16" just like non bonded bullets. The reason for bonding the jacket to the core is as Fred explained for weight retention and to avoid fragmentation. If the bullet fragments or loses it's jacket or even some of the core, it would cause it to under penetrate.

Yes a bonded bullet will not expand as fast and as much and yes it will penetrate more than a non bonded but the difference is negligible.

[jj79]

Originally Posted by agalindo

JJ79, Fred you guys are right the bonded bullet do not over penetrate, the are designed to penetrate withing FBI parameters minimum 12" max of 16" just like non bonded bullets. The reason for bonding the jacket to the core is as Fred explained for weight retention and to avoid fragmentation. If the bullet fragments or loses it's jacket or even some of the core, it would cause it to under penetrate.

Yes a bonded bullet will not expand as fast and as much and yes it will penetrate more than a non bonded but the difference is negligible.

cool, that's what I was thinking... glad to know I wasn't crazy...


-JJ

[hillbillychia]

you guys really save alot of time and trial and error! lol the people on this forum RULE!!!! great site srad, im always up for some reading of this type, thanks.