Advantages of a 135gr .40 HP?

[FleeToTheCleve]

Saw a box of 135gr hollow point .40's today- haven't tried such a low grain before, and after searching for info with no luck, I'm still curious...

What are the advantages/disadvantages using 135gr HP over 180gr HP, 165gr, etc? I know the velocity is faster but other than that do other factors play in?

What would be the key scenarios where this round would be used?

[Vicarious Cynic]

Seems a bit light to me. Lowest I'd go is 155.

[fredj338]

Light for caliber bullets suffer form not having enough mass to generate penetration. IT's called; sectional density (SD). All things being equal, bullets of higher SD penetrate further. The SD of a 40/135 is 0.121, the SD of a 110gr 357 is 0.123. So driven at the same vel, they will penetrate about the same if bullet construction is the same. Most would not view an expanding 110gr 357 @ 1300fps a reliable penetrating round, a 40/135 @ 1300fps would produce a sim wound, shallow, very shallow.
Most consider 0.150" as the benchmark SD for handgun bullets. 40/165=0.147, 40/180gr=0.161, 9mm/147gr=0.167, 45/230gr=0.162, etc. All driven to the same vel using the same bullet construction, will penetrate the same (solids). The issue is all things are seldom the same. Expanding bullets vary quite a bit in construction depending on the vel drive. The 135grJHP for the 40 are designed for rapid expansion, the 180gr more controlled exp. As the bullet expands, the SD goes down, so the lighter, more fragile bullet is, it gets even worse, less penetration.

[agalindo]

For the 40 anything below 165gr is too light. As fred states penetration would be too shallow. Velocity is not the end all to a good defensive round, you need good, deep penetration and reliable expansion without fragmentation. The heavier the bullet the more penetration and the better controlled expansion you get.

[WGSNewnan]

some of the 135 gr. loads are extremely hot. the corbon load is pushing 1350 fps. one shot stop figures in the 96% range. comparable to the 125 gr. .357 load and also the 230 gr. 45 load.
in one word - "explosive". dont be afraid to use them. the federal defense load is kinda weak though.

[agalindo]

M&S one shot stop is bull crap. It's been shown to be made up number used to support a gun rag writers unscientific opion.

[Vaffanculo403]

I know I saw 135gr Federal hydra-Shok bullets at Dick's Sporting goods and they are low recoil ones...

[WGSNewnan]

Originally Posted by agalindo

M&S one shot stop is bull crap. It's been shown to be made up number used to support a gun rag writers unscientific opion.

possibly. the question is - is the .357 magnum 125 gr. bullet travelling at 1400 fps a man killer. if the answer is yes then why would anything else loaded to similar ballistics and power levels be any less the "manstopper"? ive shot alot of the corbon and loaded several thousands of rounds to matching levels using the nosler bullet. we shot into some mock ups using multiple layers of denim, baby back ribs, and milk cartons and i can tell you for a fact it is gonna do the job. "explosive" really doesnt do it justice. it was producing massive damage to say the least.

here is some good reading for you - actual testing.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

"The deer shot here was an adult male weighing 177
lbs. It was shot broadside through the chest with
the bullet slipping between two ribs on the left side,
penetrating the lungs, exiting the thoracic cavity and
stopping just under the skin on the far (right) side.
Figure 2 shows the inside of the thoracic cavity
where the bullet entered between two ribs.
The effects on tissue were impressive. The bullet
entered just in front of the third rib (counting from
the back) on the left side, pulverized a large area
(1.5” diameter) on the inside of the rib cage and in
the liver, entered the left lung producing a large (>
1” diameter) pulverized region, entered the right
lung producing a pulverized region that gradually
shrank in size to the recovered diameter of the
bullet (0.58”), exited the rib cage just in front of the
11th rib (counting from the back) and was
recovered in the muscles of the right shoulder. The
direction of the wound agrees with the account of
the shot that the buck was mostly broadside, but
angled slightly away with his head down eating."

[agalindo]

The 357 125gr was consider a good man stopper way back when hollowpoints would only expand at magnum velocities. Statistics show that modern hollowpoints in .40, 9mm and .45 have a better track record against bad guys than the 125gr .357 that's one reason the majority of LEO agencies have adopted them.

M&S data is crap, it's made up. Many of the LEO agencies he's supposed to have gotten the information from have come to to report that they never supplied any information to him. Many of the LEOs he quotes have said they didn't talk to him and the information he printed is inaccurate.

Just to give you a brief history on how the .357magnum gained a reputation as a "man stopper". In the early days of hollow point designs(1970s and 1980s), ammunition manufacturers tested their bullet designs in water tanks. Water does not compress, and when a hollow point bullet begins penetrating the water the water that is being shoved into the hollow point must escape at the weakest point which is on the sides of the hollow point. So, the sides blow out and the hollow point mushrooms. However, human tissue is not 100% water and when actual shootings occured the hollow points did not open up reliably. Lower velocity calibers like the 9mm and .45acp were not working well, while high velocity calibers like the .357mag and .41mag made up for the poor hollow point designs with their velocity. So, these magnum calibers proved to be reliable in actual shootings with these early hollow point designs. The .357mag bullets expanded and caused more tissue destruction than a .45acp FMJ. It had nothing to do with impact energy. The .357mag bullets expanded to a diameter larger than that of a typical .45acp and destroyed more "stuff" as the bullet passed through the body.

In the late 1980s ammunition manufacturers began testing their hollow point designs in ballistic gel which more accurately simulates human muscle tissue. Since then, lower velocity calibers such as the 9mm, 40S&W, and .45acp open up just as reliably if not more reliably than the early .357mag HP designs in actual shootings. A modern .40S&W or .45acp hollow point load actually causes more destruction than a modern .357magnum round......or the .357sig for that matter. They enter the body bigger, expand bigger, and penetrate more deeply. In some cases, the 9mm performs better in "destroying things" than the .357sig because it can be loaded with better performing 147gr bullets.

Unfortunately, there is still a large number of gun owners that believe that muzzle energy is a determination of caliber effectiveness.....including a fair number of cops who may have gotten lucky 1, 2, or more times with their particular load and now refer to it as a lighting bolt. However, when you take a massive body of experience and knowledge such as that of the FBI, IWBA, and the Firearms Institute with the failures and successes included in their analysis......the .357sig/.357mag is really no better than the 9mm when you use modernized ammunition and are engaging human targets against commonly encountered barriers like those in the FBI protocol tests.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by WGSNewnan

possibly. the question is - is the .357 magnum 125 gr. bullet travelling at 1400 fps a man killer. if the answer is yes then why would anything else loaded to similar ballistics and power levels be any less the "manstopper"? ive shot alot of the corbon and loaded several thousands of rounds to matching levels using the nosler bullet. we shot into some mock ups using multiple layers of denim, baby back ribs, and milk cartons and i can tell you for a fact it is gonna do the job. "explosive" really doesnt do it justice. it was producing massive damage to say the least.

here is some good reading for you - actual testing.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

"The deer shot here was an adult male weighing 177
lbs. It was shot broadside through the chest with
the bullet slipping between two ribs on the left side,
penetrating the lungs, exiting the thoracic cavity and
stopping just under the skin on the far (right) side.
Figure 2 shows the inside of the thoracic cavity
where the bullet entered between two ribs.
The effects on tissue were impressive. The bullet
entered just in front of the third rib (counting from
the back) on the left side, pulverized a large area
(1.5” diameter) on the inside of the rib cage and in
the liver, entered the left lung producing a large (>
1” diameter) pulverized region, entered the right
lung producing a pulverized region that gradually
shrank in size to the recovered diameter of the
bullet (0.58”), exited the rib cage just in front of the
11th rib (counting from the back) and was
recovered in the muscles of the right shoulder. The
direction of the wound agrees with the account of
the shot that the buck was mostly broadside, but
angled slightly away with his head down eating."

Right up until you have to shoot thru something like say a 6" dia forearm or the bullet hits a belt buckle or zipper on a heavy jacket, etc. The bullet will frag & come apart. The 40/155gr is closer in performance to the 357/125grJHP than the 40/135gr. Much like using birdshot instead of 12ga, it may work occasionally, but I would only bet your life on it not mine. FWIW, shooting a deer broadside proves very little. The skin is thinnest there, they have little fat or musce there & no intermediate barriers like a forearm or such. Shoot the same deer point of shoulder & I almost guarantee the deer runs off on 3 legs.